Agility versus Obedience ????

Katherine

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Snap and I had an hour long intro to flatwork on Saturday. At his age (7 mos) it takes very little to "rev" him up. The word READY ?? will set him off barking. The agility trainer described him as having a lot of drive; while the breeder commented the previous weekend that I would need to get him better focused in order to do agility.

My hope is that agility and obedience are complimentary things; and / or that with some maturing and work on my part (?) that my puppy will learn to recognize that agility fun and venue mean one thing and that general obedience (not to mention competitive obedience) means something else.

Does this make any sense ? Thoughts ?
 
My guys do a bit of everything ... from agility and flyball to rally-o and obedience to tracking and therapy dog work. Dogs are great at differentiating between activities, mine have never gotten them confused or mixed up.

For a drivey dog, the key is to harness that drive and use it in order to train. I do a lot of training that focuses on taking advantage of natural drive and applying it to the task at hand. It works for both close activities like obedience and distance activities like agility. The big difference is where you direct that drive. For obedience-type work, I pull the dogs drive towards me. For distance-type work, I fire that drive of away from me. With practice, your mere body language will convey to the dog where you want their drive directed.

Eventually, all drive release ends directed at you, the handler. You just ask that your dog perform different tasks before you help them release their drive (tug play, chase games, wrestle games, etc.). Those tasks can be distance work in agility or flyball, or close work in obedience or rally-o.

There is often a misconception that an obedience dog must be calm and sedate. Not the case at all. The best working obedience dogs that I have seen are very high drive and animated. I strive to bring my dog's drive way WAY up immediately before we enter the obedience ring. And, after lots of conditioning, they have come to learn that their drive gets released through me. So when I bring their drive way up before a trial, they focus in more on me knowing that when they do so they will get to release that drive as a reward. Same thing with something like agility. Build that drive up so the focus is on you, even though you are asking the dog to be physically separated from you on the course. Their attention is always on you knowing that that is where the drive release is eventually going to come from.

Even in therapy dog work, where the dog must appear calm and sedate (as opposed to obedience work), there is still a lot of drive at play and I build it up before we enter the facility that we are working in that day. I then ask for trained tasks, such as looking at the other people, cuddling with them, doing tricks for them, and then when out of eye shot of the residents that we visit, I reward the dog for the trained tasks by releasing some drive (at the same time building it up again for the next visit). So even when the dog is acting calm and gentle, drive is still at work and still functions as a reward afterwards.
 
Agility

www.Hycalibervideo.com--Here is a great site that is pretty much new. The girl who is doing this is named Katie and it is all the trials in the New England area. I believe all are AKC.You can watch other people run their dogs and learn from them
 
good question!

Great question, by the way! I think I mentioned in another post that Bentley and I just started agility after we've been through a lot of obedience training. I'm pretty concerned because Bentley is the opposite--very low drive! He's been great at agility because he's always focused on us, but as for agility, it's going to be a tough road ahead to get him excited AND focused.

Any suggestions? Let's get Snap and Bentley together...may be they can feed off of each other! Haha.
 
Dayna-

Thanks for the response. Too bad you’re not running a training camp close by… I’d be first in line !

I’m very encouraged by your statement that dogs are great at differentiating activities… and this puts me a little more at ease at this point about worrying about what the next step(s) should be with my puppy or in what order the various activities come. Hopefully, we take some positive away from each step and build on them however......

Are there books or videos that you would recommend regarding working with drive ?

Sharon-

I took a look at the Hycalibervideo.com site last night. The video is great; however, as I am completely ignorant about it all, I'm wondering if you've run across any video showing flatwork training, if such a video exists.

Thanks to you both !

Katherine
 
Hi Kathrine,

Apparently there are some drive training books out there in the world. But like most things I do, I don't follow books much. I do a lot of trial and error, and usually then discover later on that there is a named method to what I have been doing for ages! :lol: For instance, with the drive training, I have been training Gio that way basically since I got him 6 years ago, but it wasn't until recently that I was chatting with another dog trainer and discovered that she trains using the "drive training" methods and they are essentially what I have been doing with Gio. I do what makes sense naturally for each individual dog in each situation, and have just found through trial and error that working with the dog's natural instincts and drives is going to get you much farther than trying to work against them or to change them.

The basics of drive training the way that I use it is to, on a daily basis, work with the dog so that they begin to associate that their naturally high energy is released through activities with you. That really means getting down and dirty with your dog, encouraging a lot of physical contact, and allowing them to express the natural instincts that they have. Now, to understand what natural instincts dogs will have, you have to look at where dogs started, with wild canids. So the natural instinct in wild canids is to track, pursue, chase, grab, kill and devour, in that order. As a human race, we have taken those natural instincts and honed them in certain directions to fit our needs. So for the case of hounds, centuries of breeding has honed in on their instinct to track and pursue, while dulling their instinct to chase, grab, and kill. The track and pursuit instincts are sharpended, while the chase, grab, kill instincts are dulled. And we wind up with hound-type dogs that naturally excel at scent work and following tracks. When you look at herding breeds, the natural areas that have been honed over the centuries are the pursue, and chase instincts, while the grab and kill instincts are dulled. We've then taken the pursue and chase instincts and coupled that with strong pack bonds (ie. they want to work for us), so that we can have dogs that will chase animals either towards us or away from us as so instructed without being a threat to those animals.

Knowing that, and recognizing that we have Shelties, the natural instinct to focus on will be the chase instinct. So whether that be chasing you across the yard, or chasing a toy that you throw, etc. Couple that with physical contact with you and you are both allowing the dog to release their natural drive and forming a relationship between you as the handler and the satisfying release that the dog gets when they express the drive. So if chase is a big drive for your dog, encourage them to chase you for a couple of steps and then when they catch up to you, invite them to jump up on you with their feet or engage them in a wrestling game.

Another way to really engage your dog on a natural level is to observe their play style with other dogs and mimic that back to them. For instance, Romeo does this thing where he will look at another dog out of the corner of his eye, make a low whiny growl noise, then snap at the air in front of their face and dart away. That is essentially how he gets other dogs to play chase with him. So if I want to get Romeo riled up, I get down on his level, crouch over, look at him out the corner of my eye, low growl, then quickly yip in his direction and run away. Works every time! Then we do the wrestle games and we're set for business!

When you are actively in a training session, get the energy high and focused on you, either with tug games, wrestle cames, chase games, etc. Then in the middle of the energy peak, ask for a command of some sort, watch the dog snap to action, then reward with more high energy play. So it might look like a game of tug ... tug tug tug tug tug HEEL! Briskly heel for a couple of steps, then whip out the tug again tug tug tug tug. Of course, if you use a tug for energy building, you need a solid and instantaneous "out" command, or condition it so that the dog releases the tug when the next command is given.

There is a great YouTube video showing the drive building. The trainer in this case isn't demonstrating the use of drive for working, but the dog is showing the correct level of energy that if she wanted to, she could give a command to the dog and ask them to work and they would likely snap immediately into action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA

Sorry, I've got to rambling again!

I'll just post one more YouTube video. This is one of Gio and I in an obedience fun match. I work to get his drive up in between each exercise by encouraging him to make physical contact with me, and I make contact with him with bum slaps and head grabs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI-U5brjbZk
 
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