Clicker Training Help

[k9kreationz]

Disclaimer: Although I'm discussing agility, I don't believe this is specifically agility related, so I put it here. Mods, feel free to move if you feel it doesn't belong.

For those that do clicker training I have a question because honestly, I'm starting to butt heads with my trainer because I do things differently. Also, she just went to the Clicker Expo so I could be completely wrong, but I can't recall w/o re-reading all of the clicker books again.

I thought that clicker was to "mark" behaviors that you want. Now, I know you are supposed to c/t (click/treat) while shaping behaviors and to keep up behaviors. However.....I also thought you could click and treat later on (let me give you an example).

The other week, I was working on distance in agility. So, whenever Koji went out to take an obstacle, I'd click. However, he started to come into me to get his treat (makes sense. I click, he gets a treat). So, as he continued to take obstacles away from me, I'd click as he'd commit to taking the obstacle away from me. So, he'd take the jump, I'd click. He wouldn't come to me and took the next obstacle, I'd click again. He'd take another one w/o coming into me, I'd click another time. THEN after the short sequence was completed, I'd throw a toy or treats for him. So, he knows the clicking marks his correct behavior, but he gets the treat when he's done. And well, it seemed to really work for him. He understood the clicking was marking the behavior I wanted w/o getting an instant treat. Oh, when I was doing this, after I'd click I'd yell happy things to Koji so he knew I was happy and excited that he's doing so well. So, kinda a treat, but definitely one he could careless about (he's food motivated).

I think you can apply this to almost any training situation where you might have a series of commands.

My question is....is that wrong? Should I treat after every single click? Should I not be clicking so many times, although I'm asking him to continue to do things w/o stopping?

I ask, because during training, I clicked for one thing and moved on immediately clicked for another and my trainer stopped me, then lectured me about not treating Koji. I honestly think she did more damage stopping me because I didn't have treats on me! I was clicking (for great things) as we were heading to my stuff for treats! She said I can't do multiple clicks w/o a treat. She said I have to treat within a few seconds of a click.

I dunno. I could be completely wrong but it just seemed like Koji knew he'd get a treat....just not with every click. And since clicking sticks in the brain faster, longer, etc I always feel that's better than me marking with a "yes". Especially because Koji doesn't care too much about verbal praise in anyway.

Hmm.....thoughts? I want to do the right thing with the clicker and not turn it into some meaningless thing. But I dunno, at the same time, Koji seems to learn what his job is faster with it (even when food comes after a multitude of clicks, versus just one).

If that made no sense, ask questions please. I could try to explain it w/o agility terms. lol.

 

[Silaria]

Since I do use clicker training in conjunction with agility training, I can help a little by explaining how I do things. I'll stick with your distance training example.

When Edan and I first started distance work. I'd c/t for him going out and taking the distant obstacle. Once he started doing one obstacle with a success rate of roughly 90 - 95%, I'd add a second one, NOT changing the distance, making the "trick" more difficult. (The "trick" is to complete two obstacles, not just one. The c/t should come at the end of the trick.)

Now, with two obstacles, he had to complete BOTH obstacles before receiving a c/t. I'd work with two obstacles until achieving a roughly 90 - 95% success rate. Once that is achieved, I'd add a third obstacle, again, not changing the distance, and repeat the process.

After about three obstacles, I start varying the distance before adding more obstacles. EVEN THOUGH there are three obstacles out there, the first few passes I'll probably c/t for going the further distance (one obstacle only), just to reinforce the behavior before asking for 3 obstacles.

Does that help?

 

[k9kreationz]

Sheri,

Question. When you were training, were you throwing the treat? Or was Edan coming back into you for his treat?

I think what you're doing is probably the correct way.

My problem was that Koji kept coming back to me for his treat (regardless if I was using the clicker). And tossing food on grass wasn't an option. He knows click means treat. He also knows click means immediate treat. So I'd click for a distance (click when he's committed), but then he'd come to me instantly and it seemed like he was associating the click with coming into me.

Hence we started using multiple clicks. The thought behind the multiple clicks was this. When I'd click him at the end of a sequence (him doing it correctly). I could tell that he would still associate the click with just the last obstacle he did, versus the sequence. Hmmm...this could be a backchaining issue too. And a general training issue. Darnit!

We figured clicking him for the action we wanted (even if multiple times) was better then clicking once for a sequence when he didn't understand that it was a sequence. Would you think then, that was me moving too fast (training wise, not physically)? Even though he picked up what he was supposed to do? Hmmm.....

 

[Silaria]

Edan turns into me at the end of the trick when he hears the click but not before.

Sometimes after first adding another obstacle, I'd have to run with him the first two or three passes (not at a distance) and c/t after the last obstacle so he got the idea that he needed all of them before receiving the treat. After that point, it was a matter of behaviour shaping.

One thing you may be able to try is adding a tool like this, http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2139&ParentCat=133. You can put it a few steps beyond the last obstacle in the chain. That way you can click and treat remotely.

I've been trying to convince DH we need something like this but he thinks its silly.

 

[SheltieChe]

I know of some really good trainers who will use clicker on any other mammal/ animal including snails, chickens and who knows what else but swear that clickers are not for dogs... so go figure...
In my mind clicker is like camera that separates picture perfect "cheese" moment. I can not imagine using it in agility as I would not know what picture perfect moment I need to click- when Che is looking for weaves? when he finds correct entrance? when he is not popping the weaves? when he has good drive and speed? I was taught that yes, once click means one treat principle but...
What I am trying to say that I think you are creating your own language with Koji and if he understands what are you saying who cares about anything else?
OTOH my main cues in agility come from my body motion, my both trainers are threatening to put duct tape over my mouth if I say one more verbal command so maybe I just should switch to c/t

 

[Silaria]

I can not imagine using it in agility as I would not know what picture perfect moment I need to click- when Che is looking for weaves? when he finds correct entrance? when he is not popping the weaves? when he has good drive and speed? I was taught that yes, once click means one treat principle but...

Actually you would use it pretty much like you describe above. There is actually an entire book (free to download) on Clicker Training for Agility.

Click marks the correct behaviour. When you are learning agility skills, and you are familiar with how clicker training works, it really isn't too difficult to translate obedience clicker training to agility clicker training.

We are actually starting to clicker train CJ so we can use it for agility. Perfect example is with targeting. When her nose hits the target, c/t. You start this on the floor without anything agility related. When you bring the target into agility, its to help teach them to finish the contacts with a 2-on-2-off position. As with teaching target on the floor, you c/t for the nose touch but with the added element of 2 feet on the yellow contact zone and 2 feel on the floor.

 

[k9kreationz]

Actually you would use it pretty much like you describe above. There is actually an entire book (free to download) on Clicker Training for Agility.

I didn't know that. I'm going to go check it out. Maybe it'll help me figure out what I should be doing. I mean, maybe I am moving too fast for Koji (in the sense of moving forward to fast).

 

[k9kreationz]

Edan turns into me at the end of the trick when he hears the click but not before.

Sometimes after first adding another obstacle, I'd have to run with him the first two or three passes (not at a distance) and c/t after the last obstacle so he got the idea that he needed all of them before receiving the treat. After that point, it was a matter of behaviour shaping.

One thing you may be able to try is adding a tool like this, http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2139&ParentCat=133. You can put it a few steps beyond the last obstacle in the chain. That way you can click and treat remotely.

I've been trying to convince DH we need something like this but he thinks its silly.

I think I'll have to save up for it. I do want one and think it's better than me running back to him, or him coming to me. Especially since Koji doesn't care about toys. He'll chase it, but then ignore it since he can't get food out of it. I think they're great! tell your hubby I said so.

 

[Silaria]

I didn't know that. I'm going to go check it out. Maybe it'll help me figure out what I should be doing. I mean, maybe I am moving too fast for Koji (in the sense of moving forward to fast).

The entire book, Click and Play Agility, is downloadable from here: http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/publications/ClickAndPlayAgility.html

All 11 chapters plus the appendixes are there.

Now that the entire thing is posted, I have to go and download it again myself and put all the individual pieces together in Acrobat Pro so I can read it on my Kindle.

 

[k9kreationz]

The entire book, Click and Play Agility, is downloadable from here: http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/publications/ClickAndPlayAgility.html

All 11 chapters plus the appendixes are there.

Now that the entire thing is posted, I have to go and download it again myself and put all the individual pieces together in Acrobat Pro so I can read it on my Kindle.

Oh...THAT book. I do have it d/l and put all together. If you want me to, I can email it to you. I just combined the files.

I just never read it. Going to go read it now.