Dominance Hierarchy?

[ClantyreSheltie]

The word "dominance" brings to mind some idiot male human with a big dog, who has put a prong collar on it, and yanks it around to show it that he (human) is dominant. Or who smacks it regularly just because he can. I ran into some of these while teaching basic classes. "I don't need to reward my dog, it should work because I tell it to." Right, let me know how that goes.

Many behaviors have underlying issues that have nothing to do with dominance or a hierarchy, but seem to get all lumped together under that umbrella.

Somewhere, there is an awesome blog about what dominance is and isn't. Her definition is that dominance is simply better access to resources. This happens in people as well. If it comes between you and a celebrity for the last table in a spiffy restaurant, who do you think will get it? It doesn't matter who is smarter or who works harder or who is stronger. They are in the dominant position. I'll have to see if I can find that article, it was really good.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

Thank you, I'll certainly get my hands on a couple of these.

But I'm still failing to understand, if "dominance" is still mentioned in the very description of one of these resources, and is clearly a unifying thread in almost all theories, then why are the sparks flying over the mere mention of it in the forum? I don't quite see the reasoning behind the tenderness of the subject matter. I understand that there are many other crucial factors at play (as I think anyone who actually owns a dog would), but do we not all acknowledge the significance and prominence of these particular social patterns?

Some people believe in the dominance theory and dominance based training, some don't. The reason its such a hot topic is that many trainers label dogs as dominant and try to make these dogs submit by doing things such as forcing them to the ground or issuing corrections using a choke chain or prong collar. It can be very harsh.

I happen to believe in dominance theory (that dogs have a pecking order), however dominance based training to me would be an absolute last resort, when nothing else has worked and a dog faces euthanasia for its issues. Positive reinforcement training is not only a MUCH gentler approach, but it helps to build your relationship and bond with your dog, as its not fear based.

I think this is best dealt with using a positive, reward based approach so she feels its a good thing the other dogs are there. Punishing her will just add to her insecurity and could make matters worse.

I wouldnt worry that she is doing anything to undermine you as a leader.

I agree, it doesn't sound like she's trying to undermine Jonesdhc leadership and that being as positive as possible without punishing is key.

However growling when another dog simply approaches, to me, is unacceptable. I don't like to use the term 'punish,' I think 'correct' is a better word. Its possible to 'correct' without being harsh.

When she growls at another dog, without emotion, calmly take her by the collar and remove her from the bed or from the room without saying anything. She'll get the idea pretty quickly the consequence of growling, but it won't affect your relationship with her because you haven't punished her by yelling, dragging or pulling her.

Its important that you praise her big time for ALL of the right behaviors though, so that she feels secure.

Give her time, there have been some BIG changes in your house and it sounds like she just needs time and understanding in order for her to adjust.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

The word "dominance" brings to mind some idiot male human with a big dog, who has put a prong collar on it, and yanks it around to show it that he (human) is dominant. Or who smacks it regularly just because he can. I ran into some of these while teaching basic classes. "I don't need to reward my dog, it should work because I tell it to." Right, let me know how that goes.

Many behaviors have underlying issues that have nothing to do with dominance or a hierarchy, but seem to get all lumped together under that umbrella.

Somewhere, there is an awesome blog about what dominance is and isn't. Her definition is that dominance is simply better access to resources. This happens in people as well. If it comes between you and a celebrity for the last table in a spiffy restaurant, who do you think will get it? It doesn't matter who is smarter or who works harder or who is stronger. They are in the dominant position. I'll have to see if I can find that article, it was really good.

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I was trying to explain. I think you posted this while I was writing.

I have a friend exactly like the one you described "I don't need to reward my dog, it should work because I tell it to." I find it so frustrating when he says things like that.

 

[Jonesdhc]

Thank you. Like I said from the very beginning, its not that big of a deal, I just wanted to know what you guys thought.
I assure you all, I meant the term in the most neutral way possible. I wasn't planning on running out and getting some kind of torture device to "break her to my will"... (God if you all only knew how she and I interact...shes my shadow and I treasure her...lol...I won't even bathe her in cool water because she whimpers)
Its just that I have spent a lot of time watching the three of them interact, and have noticed that the other two dogs appear to "listen" to her rather than each other or vice versa. I've never had any problems with her questioning my authority (other than the occasional selective hearing ) so that was never even a concern.
I've just heard that these kind of minor offenses can be a pre-cursor to serious problems. (As I gather I was right about from some the suggestions)
I want to correct her, but not make her insecure... that's all. I wasn't even sure if this was something that should be corrected in the first place... some say its normal.
Anyways...seriously, thank you all for all the input.

 

[KarenCurtis]

Some people believe in the dominance theory and dominance based training, some don't. The reason its such a hot topic is that many trainers label dogs as dominant and try to make these dogs submit by doing things such as forcing them to the ground or issuing corrections using a choke chain or prong collar. It can be very harsh.

I happen to believe in dominance theory (that dogs have a pecking order), however dominance based training to me would be an absolute last resort, when nothing else has worked and a dog faces euthanasia for its issues. Positive reinforcement training is not only a MUCH gentler approach, but it helps to build your relationship and bond with your dog, as its not fear based.

I could not have said this better myself! Thankyou for this post, I agree 100%.

 

[SheltieChe]

my friend has a dog who is "fun police" she growls and lifts her lip on many occasions, she really not mean and our pups just mostly ignore her behavior...
What do your dogs do when Tess growls?
I have 2 pups 17 months and 7 months old, both males and both are confident dogs. Youngest Leo is bossy and pushy.... eldest Che while strict to correct other dogs for pushiness lets Leo get away with anything... am not sure whether Leo is still carrying "puppy license" or why... OTOH Leo defers to Che and follows Che's lead... it would be interesting to see how their dynamics will play out... Che is sensitive mommy boy and Leo so full of himself he can not see anything besides his ego...
I say if your dogs are figuring out their own dynamics, let them do it... if one if them clearly not comfortable see how you can manage the situation...
as far as I am concerned I am the boss of the house and I set the rules of games played, if the object in question is a problem object gets removed...
As far as correcting I think you need to know your own dogs... I am not sure why many people think that Shelties are wilting violets that one harsh word will make them insecure for life... none of mine are... sometimes I think Che would be easier but he is oh so smart ... he reads me before I know myself so he is master manipulator... and Leo, oh Leo... it will take earth and heaven to bring his ego down and make him less secure... one should see hims walking into daycare room... forceful run in...foursquare stand... " which one of you bugs needs to be taken down?!"... considering that daycare he goes to specializes in dealing with "difficult" dogs and Leo own 12 lbs of fuzziness and total adorability... it is really comical... which reminds me need to tape it while I can...

 

[ChargerOnDavins]

I agree. Positive reinforcement first, then if needed, scolding is necessary. If words don't get the job done, a touch will. If the dog still won't discontinue or submit, it is time for a light smack on the bottom.

People can tell me all day that it doesn't work. What do I know, I have four well-behaved shelties that don't need leashes who have never had any real problems. We could all be better pack leaders if we just knew about canine wold pack dynamics.

Additionally, I might add that a hierarchy is completely normal, and nothing to worry about as long as there is no injury and they don't undermine you.

The biggest problem people have when introducing multiple dogs, is to be scared or worried. This makes the animals uneasy and often leads to them not getting along. When they fight, they are removed from each other. No real alpha is chosen, and the fights continue. As they continue, they become more and more serious, until serious injury occurs. 99% of dog "fights" rarely result in so much as a tooth to skin touch. They look vicious but they're really just sizing each other up for strength and quickness. Let them duke it out, and they will be forever happy 9/10 thereafter.

In short, I would allow the alpha to express dominance. In say an arms reach distance of you, this should not be allowed. The dominance-displaying dog should be TOUCHED (not hit necessarily) to let it know who is REALLY in charge, and then told NO firmly. My dogs rarely display dominance within this distance of me, and any other displays are ignored.

My pack gets along fantastic, so I have no worries. I worked at a vet for several years, and dealt with fear-biting and assertive-biting dogs daily. I have always done well with dogs because I do my best to think like a dog and I don't humanize them.

 

[BarbV]

I would say NEVER hit.....unless of course you have a dogs teeth embedded in your hand....

But a "touch", definitely. The touch is simply exerting your space and that you are in control.

Its not far different from the mother dog giving the pup a little shake at the back of the neck. She'll let them rough house to a point, and then she'll say "enough".

Small wonder that when our pups play, its very similar behaviour. They go for each other's scruffs until one of them finally gives and rolls over, belly up. Or if one goes too far, the other will get a little snap. Nothing to draw blood, but just enough to say "I'm done! Leave me alone!"

 

[mbfrench]

As the years have passed here,with many a foster dog,we always just let them be.It was clearly evident,that with any dog past & present..Earnhardt is top dog here.

When Trapp was very young,he learned early to even let Earnhardt ahead of him just walking up the back steps and in the house.And there was never a moment,when Earnhardt or Trapp had issues.It was just that way.

Now with Jasper,he certainly looks to Trapp first,then Earnhardt.Always the bystander,but often times the instigator. He can be assertive & cocky.When Trapp & Jasper get to rough housing,it seems it is Trapp on the bottom with paws in the air,

We just let them figure it out for them selves,and never an issue with the males.The only time we ever had a problem,was with 2 females,both spayed.Id one wanted for Earnhardts attention,and if she did not get it first,the other female was put to the ground a few times,if she was near,and the mood would strike the other.
Funny though,,they slept together like they were best buds.Go figure...hormones~

 

[romeosangiovese]

If you are interested you may also want to google the man who made alphas and dominance theory famous, Dr David Mech. Alot of compulsive dog training is based on his theory. He clarifies in his website (link below) that his theory is flawed because the packs he studied were "engineered", put together and not true packs.

http://www.davemech.org/news.html

Not sure how it relates to dogs living with humans and other dogs, but it's a good read nonetheless!