Genetic Problems in Sablemerles??????

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Smoke is a beauty!
Back when I was looking for a Sheltie, I wanted a merle, although I didn't rule out other colors. I ended up with a tri-headed white.:biggrin2:

I have found some silverish hairs on some places on Treader. Right on his shoulder blades, and some silverish spots on and near his legs too.
Could he be a "phantom merle"? If he is, then I kind of ended up with a merle after all, and his name (Gray Dawntreader) would have a double meaning. Cool!
You can see his bit of gray on his shoulders in this picture:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh95/graydawntreader/100_0086.jpg
 
tehluhlah said:
I know that sometimes a dog that appears to sable can in fact be a "phantom" merle -- a dog that is carrying the merling gene but whose coat didn't dilute much. So breeding a sable whose genetics you aren't familiar with to a merle could be risky.
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This is a good point. Dreamer is a sable merle, even though you can't see it now. We suspected, but he didn't dilute like some. Well, when he bred to Rain (our Tri girl), we ended up with 8 Sable Merle puppies. Every one of those 8 had the spotting/merling on their legs. His breeder never told me until AFTER I questioned him, and then he told me that Dreamer's Mom's color was wrong on AKC's records, because she's listed as a Sable, but she's really a sable merle. Gotta love those types of breeders! :mad: Anyway, I agree on the fact that breeding a sable pair should only be done when you know the genetics that you're dealing with. Too many times you can't see the merle in sables, if they have it, and, unfortunately, not all breeders tell you that you're actually getting a merle instead of a pure sable.
 
I've been reading this and trying to understand, so please forgive me if I repeat what's already been said.

Ok, breeding sable/merle can cause genetic defects because it can cause a double merle which is what would happen if you bred merle/merle?

Breeding merle/merle is a bad thing? Why?

How do you get merles if you don't breed merle/merle?


I'm asking because my husband is wanting to get a merle and since we have a sable, now I'm leery.
 
Typically, when breeding merle to a merle or a merle-factored dog 25% of the puppies will be double dilutes.
You can get merles without breeding a merle to a merle. All it takes is one merle or a merle factored dog. I don't know that much about genetics yet, but this is what I have learned so far from my limited research.
 
I believe that is the double merle that can have hearing and sight issues. One of the main reasons not to breed 2 merles together. :no:
 
Calliesmom said:
I believe that is the double merle that can have hearing and sight issues. One of the main reasons not to breed 2 merles together. :no:
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Breeding merle to merle can give you a double merle (aka double dilute). It's a 25% chance of getting a solid dog (tri, bi or sable), 25% of getting a double merle and a 50% of getting a regular merle.

A double merle can be blind, deaf, microthalmia (small or unexistant eyes), along with other deformities, such as liver problems.

You can show a sable merle in AKC shows. One of the classes would be AOAC (any other allowed color.) A sable merle SHOULD be (but isn't always) registered as a sable merle. (When you register a puppy, a color option is sable merle.)
 
MadisMomma said:
I've been reading this and trying to understand, so please forgive me if I repeat what's already been said.

Ok, breeding sable/merle can cause genetic defects because it can cause a double merle which is what would happen if you bred merle/merle?

Breeding merle/merle is a bad thing? Why?

How do you get merles if you don't breed merle/merle?


I'm asking because my husband is wanting to get a merle and since we have a sable, now I'm leery.
Click to expand...

First question:

No. If the sable is actually a sable merle (you could guess, because of the lineage of the dog-the colors of the ancestors), and you breed it to a blue, you might get double merles. If it's just a sable and white, and you breed it to a blue, you will not get a double merle. (I'd have to look in my color chart to get the colors you could get, but you could not get a sable merle.)

Merle to merle is a bad thing because of my above post. Knowledgeable breeders to that pairing to get the pale silver merles.

To get a merle: breed a tri-color, sable and white, a bi-black, or a color-headed of any of those shades to a blue (or bi) blue merle.


Don't be leary. Just ask and you shall have answers! (I breed blues and tris, myself.)
 
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