Hi. I have had Izzy, a 4 year old blue merle sheltie for the last 2 years. She was rescued from a home where she was kept in a crate 24/7...NEVER being let out. Over the last 2 years, I have worked with countless trainers and now even have her on Prozac, but nothing seems to work at all. She is very unpredictable and aggressives. Just tonight, she was cuddling with me on the couch and I was petting her...she jumped up, bit my hand, and then went after my other dog. I love her so much but truly feel defeated at this point. She is my 3rd out of 4 shelties and has so many issues. I can not trust her around anyone but myself. She even recently went to bite my mom, whom she has adored up to this point. My vet had recommended euthanasia if the prozac didn't work and I am just so torn....don't know what to do.
Help! Aggressive Rescue Sheltie
- Thread starter jsh81
- Start date
I don't have any personal experience with rescue dogs but there are many on this forum who have. How bad are her bites- are they a full fledged bite or are they warning bites ? I will assume since she is on prozac that you have had bloodwork done recently-especially the thyroid levels. Sorry you are having this after 2 years, I am sure you are discouraged. Does she usually get along with your other dog ? Maybe someone else on the forum will have some ideas for you. My suggestion is to make sure she is healthy and doesn't have some underlying health issue that could be making her agressive.
Before you do anything drastic I would get some insight from a professional experienced in dog behavior. I had rescued a sheltie that had severe thunder phobia. She would charge at the sound as if to attack it. She was not aggressive to people or animals but would go crazy when it thundered, gunshots (from hunters) or other similar sounds. She would act like a Tasmanian Devil & we tried 7 different medications as well as natural treatments. I finally contacted Dr Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist
at Purdue University. He was very kind & replied to my emails with advice & even gave me the contact info of a former student who is now an animal behaviorist in my area. We eventually worked on a routine that helped Maggie deal with her behavior. Here is a link to the clinic at Purdue. It might be worth contacting them to see what they suggest.
www.vet.purdue.edu/animalbehavior/
It is the hardest thing to handle when you realize there is something you just can't fix. You know Izzy can't help what she's doing but you can't let the behavior continue either. I do know from my Maggie that some of the meds actually made her a bit aggressive towards us. One of the side effects of Prozac is exactly the behavior you're seeing. Here is a link-
www.vetinfo.com/side-effects-prozac-for-dogs.html
Side Effects of Prozac For Dogs
As with any other medication, there is a chance your pet will experience mild to severe side effects while taking Prozac for dogs. This drug is known to alter blood glucose levels and should be carefully considered for dogs with diabetes mellitus. The drug has also shown to produce aggression and/or biting in rare cases. This includes enhancing the side effect in dogs already experiencing the problem, or creating aggression in dogs that were previously non-aggressive.
Other side effects to consider are the following:
* Lethargy or over-calmness
* Gastrointestinal disturbances
* Anxiety
* Irritability or aggression
* Sleeplessness
* Hyperactivity
* Excessive panting
* Loss of appetite
Good luck with Izzy & let us know if changing her meds or another opinion helps.
at Purdue University. He was very kind & replied to my emails with advice & even gave me the contact info of a former student who is now an animal behaviorist in my area. We eventually worked on a routine that helped Maggie deal with her behavior. Here is a link to the clinic at Purdue. It might be worth contacting them to see what they suggest.
www.vet.purdue.edu/animalbehavior/
It is the hardest thing to handle when you realize there is something you just can't fix. You know Izzy can't help what she's doing but you can't let the behavior continue either. I do know from my Maggie that some of the meds actually made her a bit aggressive towards us. One of the side effects of Prozac is exactly the behavior you're seeing. Here is a link-
www.vetinfo.com/side-effects-prozac-for-dogs.html
Side Effects of Prozac For Dogs
As with any other medication, there is a chance your pet will experience mild to severe side effects while taking Prozac for dogs. This drug is known to alter blood glucose levels and should be carefully considered for dogs with diabetes mellitus. The drug has also shown to produce aggression and/or biting in rare cases. This includes enhancing the side effect in dogs already experiencing the problem, or creating aggression in dogs that were previously non-aggressive.
Other side effects to consider are the following:
* Lethargy or over-calmness
* Gastrointestinal disturbances
* Anxiety
* Irritability or aggression
* Sleeplessness
* Hyperactivity
* Excessive panting
* Loss of appetite
Good luck with Izzy & let us know if changing her meds or another opinion helps.
I have a lot of experience working with rescue dogs (I'm a dog trainer, and also run a volunteer-based shelter dog training program).
Whenever a dog attacks the owner it is a huge red flag - far greater than attacking other dogs or strangers. This is nothing like a dog who is afraid of thunderstorms - it is a far more significant issue. This is obviously not a new rescue, since you've had her two years - there should be a bond between you at this point. A big concern for me is the intent and the commitment - what set the dog off, or what did the dog hope to accomplish by biting you. If there is no clear intent, the behaviour becomes difficult to undue through training. In terms of the commitment - was blood drawn or was it an inhibited bite? When I'm trying to judge aggression in small dogs, I always try to imagine how I would judge it if it was a Rottweiler doing the same behaviour. Behaviourally, I consider the seriousness of a committed bite from a sheltie the same as a committed bite from a large dog.
If this were my dog, I would:
1. Consult a dog trainer or dog behaviourist (I saw that you've already contacted a bunch - keep in mind they are not all created equal. If you can find any better than the ones you've already talked to, I would add them to your list. If not, then you've already completed this step).
2. Request a COMPLETE check up from your vet and possibly a chiropractor (you may have already done this as well), including but not limited to checking hearing/eyesight, a full blood panel, and inch by inch go-over and follow up x-rays if there are any points of soreness. One of the crankiest dogs I ever saw had a back issue, but no signs of lameness. A canine chiropractor actually spotted the problem, worked on the dog for months, and the issues of both the back and the temperament have been resolved.
3. Ensure your dog is getting adequate exercise and mental stimulation.
4. Check the food - various studies have shown that:
a) High protein increases territorial/fear aggression
b) Low protein increases aggression due to blood sugar instability
What works for one dog may not work for another, and it's amazing what a difference food can make in a dog's personality.
5. Consider natural calming aids (Rescue Remedy, Alpha-Omega Calm, etc.). Also, i have heard many positive things about TTouch (Tellington Touch), although I have not tried it myself.
6. I know you mentioned she was rescued from a house, but do you have any idea who her original breeder was? If you do, I would contact them.
The bottom line is some dogs are simply wired wrong. I know a few dogs who have had to be put down - one attacked his male owner when the owner walked in the door. He had bitten the owner multiple times before and drawn blood, and this was a full scale attack requiring dozens of stitches. The second dog attacked his female owner when she was in the kitchen one day. She turned around to see the dog lunging for her throat and got her arm up just in time. She also required stitches. Both dogs were put down - the second one was biopsied, and it turned out he had a brain tumour.
I take attacks on owners extremely seriously, because it's a behaviour that seems to escalate and escalate. When a dog attacks an owner, it crosses a clearly defined line. I do not allow my volunteers to work with dogs who have attacked their owners because of concerns for their safety - those are the only dogs my volunteers aren't allowed to work with. If the owner has worked through all of the appropriate steps, I have no issue with having them put down. And don't blame yourself - this is NOT your fault. I'm sure you did the best you could with the dog you had, but it's hard to overcome bad genetics (I'm assuming BYB since most reputable breeders keep track of their dogs), bad socialization, and two years worth of neglect. It's unfair that you are the one that has to make this decision, since you're the one who has done the most to help this dog.
Whenever a dog attacks the owner it is a huge red flag - far greater than attacking other dogs or strangers. This is nothing like a dog who is afraid of thunderstorms - it is a far more significant issue. This is obviously not a new rescue, since you've had her two years - there should be a bond between you at this point. A big concern for me is the intent and the commitment - what set the dog off, or what did the dog hope to accomplish by biting you. If there is no clear intent, the behaviour becomes difficult to undue through training. In terms of the commitment - was blood drawn or was it an inhibited bite? When I'm trying to judge aggression in small dogs, I always try to imagine how I would judge it if it was a Rottweiler doing the same behaviour. Behaviourally, I consider the seriousness of a committed bite from a sheltie the same as a committed bite from a large dog.
If this were my dog, I would:
1. Consult a dog trainer or dog behaviourist (I saw that you've already contacted a bunch - keep in mind they are not all created equal. If you can find any better than the ones you've already talked to, I would add them to your list. If not, then you've already completed this step).
2. Request a COMPLETE check up from your vet and possibly a chiropractor (you may have already done this as well), including but not limited to checking hearing/eyesight, a full blood panel, and inch by inch go-over and follow up x-rays if there are any points of soreness. One of the crankiest dogs I ever saw had a back issue, but no signs of lameness. A canine chiropractor actually spotted the problem, worked on the dog for months, and the issues of both the back and the temperament have been resolved.
3. Ensure your dog is getting adequate exercise and mental stimulation.
4. Check the food - various studies have shown that:
a) High protein increases territorial/fear aggression
b) Low protein increases aggression due to blood sugar instability
What works for one dog may not work for another, and it's amazing what a difference food can make in a dog's personality.
5. Consider natural calming aids (Rescue Remedy, Alpha-Omega Calm, etc.). Also, i have heard many positive things about TTouch (Tellington Touch), although I have not tried it myself.
6. I know you mentioned she was rescued from a house, but do you have any idea who her original breeder was? If you do, I would contact them.
The bottom line is some dogs are simply wired wrong. I know a few dogs who have had to be put down - one attacked his male owner when the owner walked in the door. He had bitten the owner multiple times before and drawn blood, and this was a full scale attack requiring dozens of stitches. The second dog attacked his female owner when she was in the kitchen one day. She turned around to see the dog lunging for her throat and got her arm up just in time. She also required stitches. Both dogs were put down - the second one was biopsied, and it turned out he had a brain tumour.
I take attacks on owners extremely seriously, because it's a behaviour that seems to escalate and escalate. When a dog attacks an owner, it crosses a clearly defined line. I do not allow my volunteers to work with dogs who have attacked their owners because of concerns for their safety - those are the only dogs my volunteers aren't allowed to work with. If the owner has worked through all of the appropriate steps, I have no issue with having them put down. And don't blame yourself - this is NOT your fault. I'm sure you did the best you could with the dog you had, but it's hard to overcome bad genetics (I'm assuming BYB since most reputable breeders keep track of their dogs), bad socialization, and two years worth of neglect. It's unfair that you are the one that has to make this decision, since you're the one who has done the most to help this dog.
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That is excellent advice from someone with training. I didn't mean to say my sheltie's thunder issue was anything near what this dog is doing. I only mentioned it to say that sometimes the meds designed to help an issue can make it worse. When my Maggie took Clomicalm it made her aggressive towards the other shelties. Once off of it she was not. I hope some of your suggestions help. I do agree there are some dogs that are too badly damaged to be fixed. It's not their fault but they have to suffer for it. Let's hope this dog has a chance to be what a sheltie should be.
labgirl
Forums Sage
This is excellent advice and I completely agree.
My trainer rescued a rottweiler x german shepherd a couple of years ago. Blake is the only dog I am truly afraid of and not because of his breed, nor his history, I have been near dogs that are known to bite without concern. Something about that dog isn't right, the first time I saw him there was a look in his eyes, and I stepped away very carefully.
Blake badly bit his last owner (there have been many) resulting in the man being hospitalised. He has bitten my trainer and her son who happened to stroke him. My trainer has hung on in there, but even she admits he is neither an easy or fun dog to own. He requires constant management to prevent someone (or herself) being hurt. Last year she came close to euthanising him.
I think you have to consider really carefully when dealing with a dog that has repeatedly bitten people and when it is not clear why. Without a 'why' it makes dealing with the behaviour almost impossible.
I hope you can find a solution for your girl.
I truly appreciate everyone's advice. To answer a few questions...yes, Izzy has had a complete work-up from the vet and is in perfect physical health. I truly believe that she is a result of both improper breeding and severe mental and physical neglect. I have done agility with her to give her a "job" to do...she does well with it, but can't do it in group settings...to anxious around the other people. At times, there are triggers to her biting...for example, she does not like it when I go out the front door either by myself or with my other dog. My other shelties have all nipped and done hearding type behaviors but Izzy takes it to the next level. She bares her front teeth and yes, she does break skin and draw blood. It is like she is a completely different dog when this happens and then she snaps out of it. When she is loving, she is very loving and cuddly. I just am concerned about the now randomness and unprovoked bites. As I said, I don't trust her around anyone at this point. I have an appointment to check with the vet about the Prozac. She did well with it initially so I am not sure why we are taking steps backwards...I will keep you all posted. Again, I have had 4 shelties....2 from puppyhood and 2 from rescues. Izzy is definitely my biggest challenge. My other dog is an 11 month old sheltie from an AMAZING breeder in Ohio - best sheltie temperment I have ever seen. Seeing Izzy compared to her really shows how mentally ill and unstable Izzy is. I have had to put down two of my girls due to cancer and that was difficult...I feel it will be a very difficult thing to live with if I have to do it to an otherwise healthy dog.
Sheltiemama
Forums Enthusiast
An otherwise healthy dog .....not really. Sounds like Izzy is mentally off in some manner.
If you have done all you can do and it sounds like you have, it may be time to put Izzy out of her misery. And I do believe it's miserable to have to live like that for both of you.
When I worked with rescue, we had a dog that was very near death when we got him. The President of our rescue fostered him. She nurtured him, nursed him back to health and he was never right mentally. He bit her repeatedly, bit anyone that came too close to him. She worked and worked with him for a long time. She finally had to put him down. He was just plain dangerous because he was so terribly unpredictable. No one ever knew when or why he would bite.
If you have done all you can do and it sounds like you have, it may be time to put Izzy out of her misery. And I do believe it's miserable to have to live like that for both of you.
When I worked with rescue, we had a dog that was very near death when we got him. The President of our rescue fostered him. She nurtured him, nursed him back to health and he was never right mentally. He bit her repeatedly, bit anyone that came too close to him. She worked and worked with him for a long time. She finally had to put him down. He was just plain dangerous because he was so terribly unpredictable. No one ever knew when or why he would bite.
take4roll10
Moderator
Prozac made my dog more aggressive. If your dog seems worse since being on Prozac, I would wean her off and talk to your vet about trying a different medication. There are numerous other behavioral medicines you can try like paxil and zoloft.
You can also try over the counter natural stuff like lactium and l'theanine.
I know how difficult it is to have a dog with behavioral problems. We have struggled to find the right medication for my dog, but sadly none of them has worked for her.
I also recommend you do a full thyroid panel if you haven't already. Low-thyroid can cause behavioral problems.
You can also try over the counter natural stuff like lactium and l'theanine.
I know how difficult it is to have a dog with behavioral problems. We have struggled to find the right medication for my dog, but sadly none of them has worked for her.
I also recommend you do a full thyroid panel if you haven't already. Low-thyroid can cause behavioral problems.
labgirl
Forums Sage
The random mood swings did make me think of epilepsy, but I suppose that has been checked for?
She sounds a very mixed up dog and though it is challenging in these situations to know what to do you sometimes have to be practical.
First of all, a dog is a companion not someone you should be wary of, or have to keep people away from.
Second, you have your other dog to think of. Izzy's behaviour will have a negative impact on your pup, especially if aggression is directed at the pup. You could end up with a second dog with issues.
Thirdly, as someone said when a dog is this bad mentally we have to contemplate if we are being fair to keep trying, or whether it would be kinder to put them at peace. It sounds like you have tried incredibly hard and done all you could for Izzy, but if even drugs aren't bringing her peace then you really need to think about her quality of life. Mental pain can be as distressing as physical pain and a dog cannot quantify it like a person can.
Lastly, from a very pragmatic view you need to think about your own safety. She has bitten you severely. Dog bites can lead to infection and there is no knowing if one time she may bite badly enough to leave other damage. My nan was bitten by a cat and I know had nasty that wound became, it was very frightening. You also have to think about other people. What if Izzy escaped? Or got away from you? Or a child came to the door and she slipped past you and bit them? If she bites another person not only are you liable financially, but you have to consider that you put them at risk by owning a dog you knew could be dangerous. In this country (UK) this has become a real cause for concern and a person who knowingly keeps a dog that has bitten a person can be sent to prison if that dog attacks someone else.
I'm sorry because that sounds so harsh, and I don't want it to sound that way. I feel for you deeply, I have friends with dogs that have bitten and they have been able to work past that, but they always have to be on their guard. My dearest doggy friend recently wondered if she would have to put her flat coat down because he was showing aggression to teenagers. She has a flat rule that if her dog bites a person then that is it. As it happened we were able to work out the root cause before he reached that level.
At the end of the day I am judging by what you have written and it does concern me that Izzy bites so hard without any provocation at times.
I hope you can find a solution, my thoughts are with you.
She sounds a very mixed up dog and though it is challenging in these situations to know what to do you sometimes have to be practical.
First of all, a dog is a companion not someone you should be wary of, or have to keep people away from.
Second, you have your other dog to think of. Izzy's behaviour will have a negative impact on your pup, especially if aggression is directed at the pup. You could end up with a second dog with issues.
Thirdly, as someone said when a dog is this bad mentally we have to contemplate if we are being fair to keep trying, or whether it would be kinder to put them at peace. It sounds like you have tried incredibly hard and done all you could for Izzy, but if even drugs aren't bringing her peace then you really need to think about her quality of life. Mental pain can be as distressing as physical pain and a dog cannot quantify it like a person can.
Lastly, from a very pragmatic view you need to think about your own safety. She has bitten you severely. Dog bites can lead to infection and there is no knowing if one time she may bite badly enough to leave other damage. My nan was bitten by a cat and I know had nasty that wound became, it was very frightening. You also have to think about other people. What if Izzy escaped? Or got away from you? Or a child came to the door and she slipped past you and bit them? If she bites another person not only are you liable financially, but you have to consider that you put them at risk by owning a dog you knew could be dangerous. In this country (UK) this has become a real cause for concern and a person who knowingly keeps a dog that has bitten a person can be sent to prison if that dog attacks someone else.
I'm sorry because that sounds so harsh, and I don't want it to sound that way. I feel for you deeply, I have friends with dogs that have bitten and they have been able to work past that, but they always have to be on their guard. My dearest doggy friend recently wondered if she would have to put her flat coat down because he was showing aggression to teenagers. She has a flat rule that if her dog bites a person then that is it. As it happened we were able to work out the root cause before he reached that level.
At the end of the day I am judging by what you have written and it does concern me that Izzy bites so hard without any provocation at times.
I hope you can find a solution, my thoughts are with you.