High Protein Diets

[BarbV]

I'm going to jump in here with the opinion that my vet also gave with respect to Bacca.

Like Dr. Mac, she did not profess to be a nutrition expert but she knew enough that a high protein diet may not be good for dogs that have liver or kidney issues. She was also honest enough to say that she was not sure if we were dealing with the chicken or the egg. So jointly, we opted for the egg approach

I love this vet. She was very pragmatic and tried to give a balanced view - the traditional vs. the more holistic approach. She also cautioned me not to believe everything that I read on the internet. And she's 100% correct.


There is a thing on the internet called "paid placement". That means that advertisors can pay to have their websites posted "higher" than others who don't pay. What this means is that when you do a google search, those who pay will show up on the first page, and the rest will show up further down.

What this means for us, as consumers, is that because of the limited cycles we have to research, we will probably stop after the 1st or 2nd page and then try another search. So those that pay, get our attention first and foremost.

Long way of saying, don't believe everything you read. I know we've all been fans of dogfoodanalysis.com but maybe there are other and better sites out there who can advise us better.

Whew! I'm out of breath, and thanks for listening (that is, if you made it this far!)

 

[SheltieGuy]

I'm going to jump in here with the opinion that my vet also gave with respect to Bacca.

Like Dr. Mac, she did not profess to be a nutrition expert but she knew enough that a high protein diet may not be good for dogs that have liver or kidney issues. She was also honest enough to say that she was not sure if we were dealing with the chicken or the egg. So jointly, we opted for the egg approach

I love this vet. She was very pragmatic and tried to give a balanced view - the traditional vs. the more holistic approach. She also cautioned me not to believe everything that I read on the internet. And she's 100% correct.


There is a thing on the internet called "paid placement". That means that advertisors can pay to have their websites posted "higher" than others who don't pay. What this means is that when you do a google search, those who pay will show up on the first page, and the rest will show up further down.

What this means for us, as consumers, is that because of the limited cycles we have to research, we will probably stop after the 1st or 2nd page and then try another search. So those that pay, get our attention first and foremost.

Long way of saying, don't believe everything you read. I know we've all been fans of dogfoodanalysis.com but maybe there are other and better sites out there who can advise us better.

Whew! I'm out of breath, and thanks for listening (that is, if you made it this far!)

Very true... dogfoodanalysis.com is in almost every food thread ... and it could be 100% crap !! Or then again it could be spot on !!! hmmmmm...... things to ponder!!

 

[The Quahog]

Well, Thursday being one of my 9AM to 9:30 PM days, if I tried to be inspired tonight the result would be even less useful than normal, so I plan on fulfilling my obligation tomorrow night.
But, seriously, not that big a deal. No one has the 'right answer' to the protein controversy, and while the input of veterinarians does give an additional perspective there was a lot of very good information and insight on that other thread from lots of knowledgeable people,who have taken great pains to study various foods, and I appreciate that.
I did do my homework and scanned the Orijen website, while Dr Bovee and Dr Finco are certainly outstanding veterinarians and tops in their field, I found the articles less than entirely convincing. Saying, to paraphrase, that yes high protein damaged the kidneys of rats, but there is no proof we can generalize from rats to dogs, and only one study was done in dogs,and ok that didn't turn out that great either, but there may have been other factors involved...
Anyway, Mark Twain once supposedly reviewed a book by saying ' This book taught me more about penguins than I ever cared to know.' You may soon feel that way about this thread and protein metabolism....
- Dr. Mac

 

[BarbV]

Well, Thursday being one of my 9AM to 9:30 PM days, if I tried to be inspired tonight the result would be even less useful than normal, so I plan on fulfilling my obligation tomorrow night.
But, seriously, not that big a deal. No one has the 'right answer' to the protein controversy, and while the input of veterinarians does give an additional perspective there was a lot of very good information and insight on that other thread from lots of knowledgeable people,who have taken great pains to study various foods, and I appreciate that.
I did do my homework and scanned the Orijen website, while Dr Bovee and Dr Finco are certainly outstanding veterinarians and tops in their field, I found the articles less than entirely convincing. Saying, to paraphrase, that yes high protein damaged the kidneys of rats, but there is no proof we can generalize from rats to dogs, and only one study was done in dogs,and ok that didn't turn out that great either, but there may have been other factors involved...
Anyway, Mark Twain once supposedly reviewed a book by saying ' This book taught me more about penguins than I ever cared to know.' You may soon feel that way about this thread and protein metabolism....
- Dr. Mac

Snort! Very politically correct of you!

I don't blame you. This is a hot topic and not one that we would ever ask you to put your professional reputation on the line.

As far as i'm concerned, you are off the hook Too hot to touch!

 

[The Quahog]

Snort! Very politically correct of you!
Too hot to touch!

Uh -oh. Looks like SOMEONE is asking for the LONG version....
As I mentioned to some before, there is a prominent plaque in my exam room , a Christmas gift from my long suffering, highly insubordinate staff, who think that perhaps at times I, shall we say, expound in explanations a tad more than entirely necessary.
It reads ' Pro Causa Dei, Non Eum Fovete.'
Which translates - 'For God's Sake, Don't Encourage Him!' :sadsmile:
- Dr. Mac

 

[Justicemom]

Ok here is my take. This is an personal issue for me too, I lost Jazz my 15yr JRT/beagle mix to kidney disease, my 19yr cat Stretch to kidney disease and my 14 old Lab Jo to liver disease(chronic active hepatitis). I've done alot of research and don't claim to know all the answers.

Disease processes are very complex, we can't just stand back and point to one thing like diet and state that it was the cause of a disease. Genetics, enivonment, drug exposure, toxins, infections, dental health, etc all have effects on the kidneys and liver as they are the biggest blood filters of the body and are most sensitive to those influences. Kidneys are tricky because before we see signs of disease such as elevated BUN and creatine over 70% of the function of the kidney is gone. Stage 1 chronic kidney failure can by indicated be just slight loss of urine concentration and protein in the urine. So it is hard to pick up stage 1 and 2 disease without close monitoring. We do know that once disease is occuring a lower protein diet will slow progession and a normal kidney can handle high protein but when does disease first start?

So does high protein cause kidney disease or does it speed up an already present process? We don't know. Like Barb said Chicken or egg? As a vet, I too opt for the egg approach too. I feel in dogs, especially geneticly high risk breeds like shelties, that high protein puts to much pressure on the organs. Sure they can handle it but is it subjecting them to more wear and tear that will show up down the line. Therefore, I recommend a diet 24-32% protein. Error on the side of caution. No need to restict protein to that which we fed kidney patients(RC MP is 14% and LP is 11% BTW) which could be harmful in a normal dog.
Also when choosing the diets, they should be as chemical free and use as good of quality ingredients as possible. A 26% protein diet full of subpar grain(ie corn), by products, and chemical preservatives is not equal to a 26% diet of whole meat, and whole meat meal, good carbohydrate sources and nautral preservatives. I also recommend monitoring dogs for early metabolic disease with yearly CBC/Internal organ profile and UA in dogs under 6yrs and every 6 months for those over 6yrs so they early changes and be detected and managed before the serious disease is present. JMHO

People will disagree, I'm sure.

 

[SheltieLuver]

Uh -oh. Looks like SOMEONE is asking for the LONG version....
As I mentioned to some before, there is a prominent plaque in my exam room , a Christmas gift from my long suffering, highly insubordinate staff, who think that perhaps at times I, shall we say, expound in explanations a tad more than entirely necessary.
It reads ' Pro Causa Dei, Non Eum Fovete.'
Which translates - 'For God's Sake, Don't Encourage Him!' :sadsmile:
- Dr. Mac

I actually do encourage you! This has been a very interesting thing for me and would to have a vet's opinion on it. I have recently switched my pack to Taste of the Wild which isn't nothing compared to Orijen. Just want what's best for my "kids"

 

[Ann]

That is the single best explanation I've ever heard on this subject, Dr. Shelli. Thank you so much for sharing your view! We'll look forward to hearing Dr. Mac's long version once he's decompressed from a 12-hour day of vetrinarying.

And sorry, Dr. Mac, I fear this group will encourage you...we want to hear what you have to say. Every scientific long-version fact!

Thanks to both of you for helping us sort through this protein maze.

 

[Caro]

I did do my homework and scanned the Orijen website, while Dr Bovee and Dr Finco are certainly outstanding veterinarians and tops in their field, I found the articles less than entirely convincing. Saying, to paraphrase, that yes high protein damaged the kidneys of rats, but there is no proof we can generalize from rats to dogs, and only one study was done in dogs,and ok that didn't turn out that great either, but there may have been other factors involved...

Yes - the great rat experiment debate. We have the same problem in human research. Using rats to test metabolic theories in longer lived mammals just doesnt work. Lab rats have a very short life span (typically a couple of years) and a very high metabolic rate, which means they process food quite a bit differently.

Remember the theory that people will live longer if they eat lower than av daily requirements will result in a longer life. Well that was only proved in rats which had such a high metabolic rate that slowing it down did extend their lives by a few days. But what research in humans has shown is overweight people actually live the longest - but I can tell you the rat research is still espoused by health experts over the more solid human experiments. Sorry, just my rant, I get sick of rats!!!
Dr Caro (not the vet kind of Dr though)

 

[BarbV]

Ok here is my take. This is an personal issue for me too, I lost Jazz my 15yr JRT/beagle mix to kidney disease, my 19yr cat Stretch to kidney disease and my 14 old Lab Jo to liver disease(chronic active hepatitis). I've done alot of research and don't claim to know all the answers.

Disease processes are very complex, we can't just stand back and point to one thing like diet and state that it was the cause of a disease. Genetics, enivonment, drug exposure, toxins, infections, dental health, etc all have effects on the kidneys and liver as they are the biggest blood filters of the body and are most sensitive to those influences. Kidneys are tricky because before we see signs of disease such as elevated BUN and creatine over 70% of the function of the kidney is gone. Stage 1 chronic kidney failure can by indicated by just slight loss of urine concentration and protein in the urine. So it is hard to pick up stage 1 and 2 disease without close monitoring. We do know that once disease is occuring a lower protein diet will slow progession and a normal kidney can handle high protein but when does disease first start?

So does high protein cause kidney disease or does it speed up an already present process? We don't know. Like Barb said Chicken or egg? As a vet, I too opt for the egg approach too. I feel in dogs, especially geneticly high risk breeds like shelties, that high protein puts to much pressure on the organs. Sure they can handle it but is it subjecting them to more wear and tear that will show up down the line. Therefore, I recommend a diet 24-32% protein. Error on the side of caution. No need to restict protein to that which we fed kidney patients(RC MP is 14% and LP is 11% BTW) which could be harmful in a normal dog.
Also when choosing the diets, they should be as chemical free and use as good of quality ingredients as possible. A 26% protein diet full of subpar grain(ie corn), by products, and chemical preservatives is not equal to a 26% diet of whole meat, and whole meat meal, good carbohydrate sources and nautral preservatives. I also recommend monitoring dogs for early metabolic disease with yearly CBC/Internal organ profile and UA in dogs under 6yrs and every 6 months for those over 6yrs so they early changes and be detected and managed before the serious disease is present. JMHO

People will disagree, I'm sure.

Not me! I'm crossing my fingers and toes that the lower protein, grain-free diet for Bacca does the trick. I'll know in about 2 weeks.

Thank you for finally stepping out and revealing yourself.

Of course we don't want violent dialogue about these issues, but getting a balanced point of view is always good. It's all about free choice and informed decision.

Keep the dialogue going on this and other threads.