lost coat color

Bejilia

Forums Regular
I have a question...

My dream-sheltie in coat color(!) is a black and tan, but this color is lost since more than 40 years. Here in Germany it's still an accepted color, although there are no black and tan shelties yet. I searched for breeders, who try to breed back, but there isn't just one... :cry:
Now my question: Does anyone know a breeder, who attempts this? :confused2:
Or is there simply no one out there who would love to get a black and tan sheltie like me?


R. m. Q.
 
All black isn't an "accepted" color in the US (American Kennel Club), so no one breeds for it. All white isn't either, but bi-black (black and white) is. We have tricolor (black, white and tan), but no black-and-tan (although it's a great beverage! :biggrin2:).
 
Here we have breeders, who breed in the clubs of other countries (especially to breed chw shelties). I hoped it's similar in the US... (hope dies lastly :wink2:)
(We have tricolor, blue merle, sable, dark sable, bi-black and bi blue...)
But thanks for the answer... :smile2:


R. m. Q.
 
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I don't know that it would be possible to find *any* shelties that wouldn't display the irish pattern to some degree now. It is much easier to get CHWs, which are registerable with AKC and showable in UKC here, and probably acceptable in some other countries as well, as you have a chance of getting CHWs any time you breed a white factored dog to another white factored dog, and white factoring is pretty common within the breed. It's not that there aren't potentially people who would breed for black and tan if they could.... it's just there aren't lines left that aren't carrying the irish pattern.
 
as far as i know there was only one black and tan sheltie ever registered (in the 20's i think??) it was written into the standard as an acceptable color, but it has never in the history of the breed been common. i thought sue ann bowling's site had the info on the black and tan sheltie, but i might have seen it in "sheltie talk". sorry for the vague response. i do find their history fascinating, though.

edit: i can't seem to find where i obtained the info on this sheltie... but if you want to poke around bowling site, it is really informative and helpful: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/SSlinks.html

last edit: unusual sheltie colors at the bottom of this page: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Photindex.html
couldn't find blk/tan tho.
 
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I believe there were several shelties registered as black and tan, however there is a question mark as to whether this was a crofter's way of describing a tricolour - i.e it was black, tan and white as opposed to black and white or brown (sable) and white. Certainly if you look at the pictures of the original island dogs, black does seem to be the prevailing colour but it is very difficult to tell from those early, grainy photographs exactly what colour the dog was.

In aiming to fix the desired collie type into the shelties, very early on the black and tan colouring disappeared - it was obviously not present in the desirable lines and some pretty intensive inbreeding was being done to those lines. I can't recall the last time a black and tan sheltie was registered but I think it was prior to the Second World War, so a very long time ago.

I think now, the chances of coming across a true black and tan sheltie are non existant. Unlike some breeds where there remains a seperate 'working/native population', all shelties world wide are descended from the same nucleus of dogs. I have never heard of a distinct line which has been maintained outside of the registered population and indeed, such a line would by now have become so inbred it would be in severe difficulties. It is really rather odd that the colour is still included in the standard as there have been quite a number of revisions since it became 'extinct.'

A glimmer of hope though is that from time to time, shelties are bred with very little in the way of white. I knew one little tri who only had a small patch of white on his chest and white toes. Perhaps if you put the word out that you are looking for a tri with as little white as possible you might get lucky, providing that is your only criteria! As with many show breeds, plain animals are not particuarly sought after and the flashier dogs carrying the classic white markings tend to be more sucessful. Most pet owners also prefer the 'Lassie look' so there is little reason for anyone to specifically breed for reduced quantities of white. I'm sure I have read somewhere though of someone 'experimenting' with very plain tri colours. I could be wrong but it might have been in the online Global Sheltie Magazine?

If you're not in any particular hurry, when I have a moment I will look through my 'archive' and see if I can turn up anything else for you - as it is an interesting subject. In the meantime I can also thoroughly recommend the 'Bowling site' and these two as well for the genetics:

http://website.lineone.net/~a.j.mcknight/Sheltie coat colour genetics.htm#The

http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/sheltie.html
(Unfortunatly the link to 'shelties without white markings' is broken)
 
Thank you all for answering :smile2:

I'm sure I have read somewhere though of someone 'experimenting' with very plain tri colours. I could be wrong but it might have been in the online Global Sheltie Magazine?
I will take a look! :yes:

If you're not in any particular hurry, when I have a moment I will look through my 'archive' and see if I can turn up anything else for you - as it is an interesting subject.
This would be GREAT, thank you! (there's no glowing smiley, :winkgrin: I would have placed it here)

In Germany the shelties without enough white get no breed allowence... :sadsmile:

R. m. Q.
 
According to the Swedish Shelte Club, black and tan is an accepted color, but I've never seen a black and tan one myself.
 
I have come across this statement made by one of the breed's founders James Loggie (Lerwick) in about 1908:

"The colours usually met with are black and white, black and tan, black - tan and white, black, sable, and sable and white."

This quite clearly is saying that black and tans without white were certainly present on Shetland. I don't know how much to read into the order, but maybe if the black colours were the first to be listed, perhaps they predominated over sable and white? It's also interesting that black and sable as 'self' colours (without white) are listed. I've never heard this mentioned before and they are not listed as accepted colours in the UK standard. Merle isn't there because it was introduced a few years later with the collie crosses.

This is the link to the full article:

http://shetlopedia.com/James_Loggie
I'm still looking for info on the black and tan breeding programme.
 
Seashel, you are a very impressive source of sheltie history and pedigree information, and I really enjoy all the information you post on the different threads on SN. Thanks for sharing your wonderful knowledge with us!
 
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