Natural Breeding being bred out?

[Narmowen]

I've been told by multiple Sheltie breeders that all of the AI'ing is making the males lose the ability/knowledge/instinct of natural breeding.

I've seen this myself. My male's great-grandsire was AI'd because (I've heard) he didn't know what/how to do it. The grandsire had to be AI'd twice because he couldn't figure it out. The sire needed help figuring it out, but after, got it down well. (I mean, he couldn't figure it out on his own, multiple attempts etc).

Am I crazy for believing this or does this have some basis in reality/fact?

Has anyone else run into this?

 

[tofu pup]

I suppose it's possible, but there's AIs and then there's AIs. If the dog flirts with and mounts the bitch, and the collector is slipped in between at the opportune moment, that's pretty close to natural (the dog still performs the same actions he would have to in a natural breeding). If the dog doesn't or won't mount and is just standing there sniffing while the breeder collects, that's a bit different.

Most young dogs have to be helped a little and given extra time to "figure it out" at first, anyway. Now, if you had an experienced bitch and you left the two of them in a closet long enough, yes, one would hope that Mr. Inexperienced would eventually get his act together, but this could take a while, and Ms. Experienced would be justified in eventually losing her patience.

Let's look at this in an evolutionary sense. By chance of genetics, some dogs might be born with very low libidos. Theoretically, they simply would never be able to reproduce without human intervention. By intervening, a breeder would allow those low-libido genes to be carried on anyway - resulting in more dogs with low libidos. I'm not sure, though, that this is as common as people worry about it being: again, given sufficient time and a sufficiently patient bitch, most dogs are capable of getting the job done.

I'm more concerned about breeds like Bulldogs in which, as a rule, the dogs physically cannot mate or whelp without intervention.

 

[granite]

No AI here, although Sasha successfully refused Figaro for 3 heats before he conned her into it.

 

[HopeShelties]

From what I've seen, I agree. Though both of my males will breed naturally, pending the bitch isn't an overly nasty one (and yes, many of my girls have 'boys have cooties' attitudes).

 

[BarbV]

I'm more concerned about breeds like Bulldogs in which, as a rule, the dogs physically cannot mate or whelp without intervention.

Why is that?

I'm almost afraid to ask because it's a black mark against conformation in general, in my view. That is, to meet a certain idealistic standard, dogs have been bred to be no longer capable of doing basic natural acts! That's a worry!

Don't get me wrong! I'm all for planned breeding for betterment of the standard, but this seems to be backwards!

 

[tofu pup]

No, Barb, it's a perfectly legitimate concern. I'm a tremendous proponent of purebred dogs, I love participating in conformation shows, but I (and others) have concerns about where we, as a fancy, are headed, particularly in certain breeds.

It is my understanding that, because of their peculiar anatomy, natural mounting, mating, and tie are significantly unlikely to happen in the Bulldog without significant assistance by humans. You can google "natural breeding bulldog" and find a few sites that discuss this. In addition to issues of geometry, the male, if he must make numerous attempts to mount (as is often the case for any male dog), is prone to overheating, which can be quite dangerous in this breed.

Once you've managed to achieve a pregnant bulldog bitch, getting the puppies out is in itself a hefty proposition: again, the anatomy that has been selected for by breeders (very large head, narrow hind) makes a planned c-section delivery necessary in the majority of cases.

Bulldogs did not always have this peculiar anatomy; like the exaggerated hock-walking gait of the German Shepherd and the breath-restricting flat face of the Pug, breeders, with the help of the show-ring, have selected for certain traits to the point of exaggeration.

Please note that I see nothing wrong with selecting for certain traits in a dog. (A long-faced Pug wouldn't really be a Pug, would it?) It is the exaggeration of these traits to the point of detriment to the dog's healthy function that is of grave concern.

Unfortunately, when these concerns are brought up, the "old guard" of those who have the most powerful voices in the American dog fancy begins to fling accusations. My opinions are, as far as I can tell, most unpopular among the dog show set - people want to continue doing what they've always done, and few people want to sensibly address the problems that are becoming more and more apparent.

Again, I reiterate: I love purebred dogs. I love dog shows. But I have no love for the disturbing trends of over-exaggeration without regard to good health that are apparent in many dog breeds.

 

[Phebe*DD]

Again, I reiterate: I love purebred dogs. I love dog shows. But I have no love for the disturbing trends of over-exaggeration without regard to good health that are apparent in many dog breeds.

I'm in total agreement. Over-emphasis of a trait to the point of exaggeration doesn't make any sense to me. I have a friend with Bull Terriers, a bitch and a neutered male. The bitch was bred this past spring. To deliver one puppy required 2 or 3 plane trips, a stint at a vet specializing in dog reproduction for AI, and a cesarean section. At least the singleton ended up being show quality, but it still seems excessive to me. The reason for all this extra attention is the muscle-bound nature of a show quality bull terrier. They have very limited flexibility. The poor things can't even lick their own hinder parts.

 

[Lightplum]

Bulldogs did not always have this peculiar anatomy; like the exaggerated hock-walking gait of the German Shepherd and the breath-restricting flat face of the Pug, breeders, with the help of the show-ring, have selected for certain traits to the point of exaggeration.

Ahhh so im not the only one than that sees this as a problem with German Shepards...It drives me crazy to see them in the ring it just looks like they are going to have problems when they age...could be wrong though...but it does look terribly uncomfortable to them. Im wondering though since I havent researched it but are the german line of them keeping a straighter hock?

 

[Calliesmom]

Ahhh so im not the only one than that sees this as a problem with German Shepards...It drives me crazy to see them in the ring it just looks like they are going to have problems when they age...could be wrong though...but it does look terribly uncomfortable to them. Im wondering though since I havent researched it but are the german line of them keeping a straighter hock?

I don't like how the German Shepherds look either- but I'm no expert

 

[JessicaR]

Ahhh so im not the only one than that sees this as a problem with German Shepards...It drives me crazy to see them in the ring it just looks like they are going to have problems when they age...could be wrong though...but it does look terribly uncomfortable to them. Im wondering though since I havent researched it but are the german line of them keeping a straighter hock?

this is exactly why I dont have a german shepherd, and if I do ever get one it would be a pup from working lines not show lines. The german show line is not as bad as the american hock trotter, but they are no where as good as the working line.

As for the english bulldog, my parents neighbor shows and breeds them. She says they have to be AI'd, the male can overheat, also that much weight on his skinny hind legs can cause damage to joints. c-section is a must as the pups heads are to large to pass through the narrow pelvis and the female can not reach her hind end. She also bottle feeds her pups due to loosing so many pups because mom just lays on them and doesnt move. Too much work for me! I will stick with a breed that can at least give birth on its own. I understand any breed can have an unexpected problem and need a c-section, but to breed that problem in is rediculous!