Need help with nervous/aggressive dog.

[Craig]

Hey gang. I have a now 4yr old named Babe. My parents adopted her after falling in love with our old sheltie who's passed. Both dogs were/are local Amish bred dogs. Different breeders.

During a bout of unemployment and living at home I took the dog chores on myself and began taking care of Babe and my parents pom. From the very begining this dog has been very nervous and aggressive in certain situations. Food aggression was a major problem which we've overcome as long as she knows the dogs she's eating with. More on this later. So, during this food aggression I began watching Cesar Milan's show looking for ideas on how to help the dog (not a lifestyle for being with dogs) and began walking the two dogs together for about a mile a day. Worked through the food aggression but not before she destroyed a few pairs of PJ pants and drawing blood on my Mom's fingers a few times. One year later food aggression is gone even with the addition of a third dog.

During this bout of unemployment I start dating a girl and spend less time in the house. A year into this, Babe is now 2yrs old, my mom rearranges the furniture and I'm on the floor playing with Babe. Toy play. At one point I start scratching her back and sides, she flops on her belly and I give her raspberries (buzz her stomach with my lips). She jumps up and starts barking. The way the furniture is arranged I'm in the only exit. The couch and recliner have a square area fenced off I'm between the two using the cordoned area as a play area. Thinking she's still playing with me i drop to my hands/knees and give her a play bow kind of thing and she lunges towards me as if to do the same and then starts barking. Bites my ear. Results in 26 stitches to sew my ear back on along the back and to sew shut the hole in my ear. Tetnus, dog bite report, etc, etc.

So life moves on and I move out of the house. Babe stays with my Mom for two months before she's able to move in with me. I didn't see her once in those two months. I came back to get her and she's lost a few pounds. Very obvious. I'd say she's gone from ~33lbs down to about ~24. Remember, food aggressive. Then I see the new dog (Jug) and the thing is a sausage. Seems as if Babe has been chased off her food bowl a bit.

She moves in with me and for one month she's the only dog in the house. "King in the castle. King in the castle." a la Borat the GF and I say. She starts to get bratty. Walks on a leash and does circles around me. New behavior I've not seen from her since she was a puppy. She's used to walking on my right and is trained to walk off leash as well. Me thinks the GF is slacking.

Day before Thanksgiving we drive out to a foster to adopt a 3yr old Greyhound. Great dog. Super calm, super low key. Babe tries to control him. If he squeaks a toy she jumps at his collar/neck. If he runs to the kitchen (he loves food, kinda skinny still) when he hears a bag krinkle she comes running behind him barking. I let them out one at a time because it's hard to hold two leashes, one with a dog that can hit 40mph in about a second on the other end, and pickup poo. So I try to alternate who I take first that way there's no favoritism/jealousy (babe is a jealous dog) and on this occassion, a few days ago, took Babe first. Bring her in hang her leash and grab Glider's. Latch him up and turn to leave, I hear her nails on the tile and turn around to stop her from running out with me. I reach out and give her a gentle push, more a tap really, on her side. She's tense when touch her and she whips around and nips at me. Hit me on the left forearm. Opened me up through a thick sweatshirt, no rip in the clothing.

On both occassions Babe was physically disciplined. The first for the ear was more a reaction as I was bleeding and more or less a retaliation. The second time I grabbed her by her scruff and put her on her side. Wouldn't let her up.

At this point I'm getting extremely mad and feel backed in a corner. I don't want her to go elsewhere because: aside from being nervous/aggressive she's great. She's very close to me, always following me around the house. Always looking for my attention. Jealous when I pet the new dog, tries to nudge her way between us. etc. I feel if i give her up there will be an incident and she'll be put down. Giving her up is also a sort of betrayal. She's come a long way to get passed a lot of things psychologically because of me and the relationship she and I have. Things like food aggression, excessive nervousnous to the point of urination etc.

Any advice on working this out? All my other dogs have been normal.:sadsmile:

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

I have dealt with dogs like this that have come in the rescue.

First: the food thing. Why do people free feed? Stop that. Dogs who come from where they had to fight siblings for food (eg the Amish kennels) will never be "right" about food. Feed the dogs separately and remove the issue completely.

Second: there are some serious resource guarding issues that need to be addressed beyond the food. I'll let someone else handle that, since I have never had that issue.

Third: this to me is a clear case of a dog with no boundaries. She does as she pleases, and no physical correction will change her mind on that. She needs a Nothing in life is free program, badly. This program sets limits and helps them understand you are the owner of all thing good.

Also, I would have a crate for her to go when you take the other dog out. Just remove her from the whole door situation until she can settle.

 

[SheltieChe]

Craig, I took this quote from your other response
"Take any treat. Offer it to the dog. When they try to take it, don't let go. If a tug of war develops do not pull back. Hold on to the the toy/treat and dead arm the dog. After much shaking and tugging, and hopefully not winning, puppy will give up. You control the treat. Once you get a sign of retreat like losing focus on the treat and attention on you or a sit then you can give it up.

Practice this. Don't get into challenges with the dog. Sounds like they're protecting the toy as if they own it. Challenging for property = aggressive/nervous behavior. Once you have the dead arm thing practiced and dog is more accustomed, gives up the item easily, then you can challenge him for treats/items they're currently working on. Typically you'll get a flight response if they've moved on from the teeth showing/growling. At this point you can once again renegotiate terms and begin freely removing items. Personal experience with aggressive and nervous dogs. "

so my question is you say don't get into challenges with a dog but at same time give a bone and don't let go, tug to win etc... Sounds like a contradiction to me. I think it is basis of why your dog's food aggression is still strong. When I put several bones on the floor and my dog start chewing one, I pick up second and offer to the dog. Dog has TO MAKE A CHOICE VOLUNTARY to give up bone dog has and take one I am offering. It is a very significant difference- you make a choice to do right thing or someone takes it out of your mouth because "Might makes it right"
Caesar Millan is a sore subject for many on this forum so we won't go there
Physically disciplining your dog after the fact is ONLY going to increase dog's aggression. Dogs are unable to learn "don't do that" concept, it is too abstract for them. The only capable of " DO that"- i.e. sit, down
ClantyreSheltie offered some good suggestions. You will need to MANAGE the situation by not letting dogs get into them, feed in the crates, put baby gates, tether etc.
There is very good program called "Ruff Love", book by Susan Garrett you might want to get your hands on.
Otherwise I would suggest find a trainer behaviorist that works with POSITIVE reinforcement and none of that !@#$ about punishment and putting dog on the side alpha rollovers.

 

[Caro]

It sounds like your dog is very insecure. I agree with Clantyresheltie - feed seperately and use the NILIF program.

Dog's have so little control over their lives that food aggression often occurs due to insecurity. Food is important to many dogs - don't turn it into a battle by fighting your dog for it or giving then taking away, these approaches can make things worse. At my club we teach 'exchange' to help overcome resource guarding and food aggression. When they have a resource (eg toy or food) you offer them something else of equal value in exchange for the resource they have and do a swap. You can add the word 'give' when you exchange and start with lower value resources. The idea is to put a positive association on giving something up.

Never use physical punishments, particularly restraint, with an insecure dog. It limits the ways they can communicate to you so they see their only way out is a physical response - so a growl can quickly become a bite. Methods like time-out will be more effective. Leave a collar on her at all times, and maybe even a short lead (you can just cut an old one so its about 5" long). Then when you want to reprimand her you can lead her into an area to be alone without talking to her. When she has settled down and is calm you can lead her back out - A couple of minutes is usually enough.

NILIF is a really good program, if done properly, for an insecure dog. Basically your dog has to 'do' something in return for getting something it wants - food, play, a walk and so on. The something could be a drop, sit, or even a trick. It teaches them self control and to stop and think. I would also add a very tight schedule. Dogs thrive on routine and for an insecure dog having a routine, when they know at what times things occur, provides it with more security. Try to stick to set times for feeding, walking, play.

 

[danisgoat]

Never use physical punishments, particularly restraint, with an insecure dog. It limits the ways they can communicate to you so they see their only way out is a physical response - so a growl can quickly become a bite. Methods like time-out will be more effective. Leave a collar on her at all times, and maybe even a short lead (you can just cut an old one so its about 5" long). Then when you want to reprimand her you can lead her into an area to be alone without talking to her. When she has settled down and is calm you can lead her back out - A couple of minutes is usually enough.

NILIF is a really good program, if done properly, for an insecure dog. Basically your dog has to 'do' something in return for getting something it wants - food, play, a walk and so on. The something could be a drop, sit, or even a trick. It teaches them self control and to stop and think. I would also add a very tight schedule. Dogs thrive on routine and for an insecure dog having a routine, when they know at what times things occur, provides it with more security. Try to stick to set times for feeding, walking, play.

This is some very valuable information. I agree with everything that Caro is suggesting for you to do.

Please give it a try and let us know how it works!

 

[Craig]

Craig, I took this quote from your other response
"Take any treat. Offer it to the dog. When they try to take it, don't let go. If a tug of war develops do not pull back. Hold on to the the toy/treat and dead arm the dog. After much shaking and tugging, and hopefully not winning, puppy will give up. You control the treat. Once you get a sign of retreat like losing focus on the treat and attention on you or a sit then you can give it up.

Practice this. Don't get into challenges with the dog. Sounds like they're protecting the toy as if they own it. Challenging for property = aggressive/nervous behavior. Once you have the dead arm thing practiced and dog is more accustomed, gives up the item easily, then you can challenge him for treats/items they're currently working on. Typically you'll get a flight response if they've moved on from the teeth showing/growling. At this point you can once again renegotiate terms and begin freely removing items. Personal experience with aggressive and nervous dogs. "

so my question is you say don't get into challenges with a dog but at same time give a bone and don't let go, tug to win etc... Sounds like a contradiction to me. I think it is basis of why your dog's food aggression is still strong. When I put several bones on the floor and my dog start chewing one, I pick up second and offer to the dog. Dog has TO MAKE A CHOICE VOLUNTARY to give up bone dog has and take one I am offering. It is a very significant difference- you make a choice to do right thing or someone takes it out of your mouth because "Might makes it right"
Caesar Millan is a sore subject for many on this forum so we won't go there
Physically disciplining your dog after the fact is ONLY going to increase dog's aggression. Dogs are unable to learn "don't do that" concept, it is too abstract for them. The only capable of " DO that"- i.e. sit, down
ClantyreSheltie offered some good suggestions. You will need to MANAGE the situation by not letting dogs get into them, feed in the crates, put baby gates, tether etc.
There is very good program called "Ruff Love", book by Susan Garrett you might want to get your hands on.
Otherwise I would suggest find a trainer behaviorist that works with POSITIVE reinforcement and none of that !@#$ about punishment and putting dog on the side alpha rollovers.

rollovers are only for biting. it's not a constant..

the whole point of the dead arm technique i use is not challenging. are you saying that not letting go is the challenge?

 

[Craig]

It sounds like your dog is very insecure. I agree with Clantyresheltie - feed seperately and use the NILIF program.

Dog's have so little control over their lives that food aggression often occurs due to insecurity. Food is important to many dogs - don't turn it into a battle by fighting your dog for it or giving then taking away, these approaches can make things worse. At my club we teach 'exchange' to help overcome resource guarding and food aggression. When they have a resource (eg toy or food) you offer them something else of equal value in exchange for the resource they have and do a swap. You can add the word 'give' when you exchange and start with lower value resources. The idea is to put a positive association on giving something up.

Never use physical punishments, particularly restraint, with an insecure dog. It limits the ways they can communicate to you so they see their only way out is a physical response - so a growl can quickly become a bite. Methods like time-out will be more effective. Leave a collar on her at all times, and maybe even a short lead (you can just cut an old one so its about 5" long). Then when you want to reprimand her you can lead her into an area to be alone without talking to her. When she has settled down and is calm you can lead her back out - A couple of minutes is usually enough.

NILIF is a really good program, if done properly, for an insecure dog. Basically your dog has to 'do' something in return for getting something it wants - food, play, a walk and so on. The something could be a drop, sit, or even a trick. It teaches them self control and to stop and think. I would also add a very tight schedule. Dogs thrive on routine and for an insecure dog having a routine, when they know at what times things occur, provides it with more security. Try to stick to set times for feeding, walking, play.

NILIF is something i've been on for a few weeks. i read about it on a site for greyhounds and applied it to babe. she likes to nudge my hand for attention so i've tried to stop that. it's also a habit for me to just randomly scratch her when she comes around. i don't even think about it. have been trying to notice when i do that and cut it out.

another sore spot is walking. she LOVES walks. gets super excited. when i walk her she pulls the lead when i try to keep her close. she's always ears up and scanning for something interesting. i've tried slowing it down, stopping when she gets to anxious and waiting for her attention to break off what she's on but she just goes right back. takes about half the walk for her to relax, about half a mile.

 

[SheltieChe]

rollovers are only for biting. it's not a constant..

the whole point of the dead arm technique i use is not challenging. are you saying that not letting go is the challenge?

I am saying, there should not be "dead arm" at all. It is about CHOICE your dog makes. You stage things the way your dog can choose and stage it the way it makes it easy for dog, to set up dog for success, and then good choice gets rewarded tons. if you give your dog old just slighlty appealing chewy and then offer really good juicy steak, your dog will happily make right choice. Give a dry bone then ask for it back and reward with something extra yummy. Once you have plenty of those positive responses you will see less and less food guarding, it is like depositing into dog's bank account with positive choices.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

rollovers are only for biting. it's not a constant..

the whole point of the dead arm technique i use is not challenging. are you saying that not letting go is the challenge?

The 'dead arm technique' isn't' challenging your dog, is about teaching them who controls the resources so they can learning boundaries and limitations. If you practice this she'll learn that all things belong to you, not her. It helps to drop the whole 'demand submission by asserting dominance/leadership' way of thinking, dogs don't think that way. Instead what you're doing is teaching your dog a different way of thinking, even problem solving. Your showing her how to make the right choice by rewarding her for giving up, without really being confrontational about it. By working with your dog instead of demanding compliance, you'll strengthen your relationship with her and get better results.

Rolling an anxious, fearful dog is only going to make things worse, not better because it can cause the dog to try and defend itself through biting, which you're trying to prevent, not encourage. Its also counter productive when you're trying to gain your dogs trust and strengthen your relationship.

NILIF is something i've been on for a few weeks. i read about it on a site for greyhounds and applied it to babe. she likes to nudge my hand for attention so i've tried to stop that. it's also a habit for me to just randomly scratch her when she comes around. i don't even think about it. have been trying to notice when i do that and cut it out.

NILIF is a great program, keep at it. Its just as much about training ourselves as it is about training our dogs. Try not to get discouraged, many of us have been in your position and trying to correct our own actions as well as our dogs.

another sore spot is walking. she LOVES walks. gets super excited. when i walk her she pulls the lead when i try to keep her close. she's always ears up and scanning for something interesting. i've tried slowing it down, stopping when she gets to anxious and waiting for her attention to break off what she's on but she just goes right back. takes about half the walk for her to relax, about half a mile.

Babe sounds like my Toby, traffic makes him very anxious. Pulling, ears and tail up and constant scanning and leash straining are all indications of anxiety/stress. Have you ever tried to give her a treat while on one of these walks and had her nearly take your fingers off? If so, in this case its probably not because of food possessiveness, but stress.

I use a Gentle Leader head collar on Toby, which is VERY helpful. It gives you better control, alleviates the pulling and the slight pressure it puts on the back of the head and nose are calming. I highly recommend getting an gentle leader or something similar.

Good luck with Babe!

 

[Caro]

I wouldn't use the 'ignoring' component of some NILIF programs for an insecure dog. I did initially use this with my timid female when she was younger and it made her more insecure. I spoke to a vet behaviourist about it and she recommended continuing NILIF program, but without withdrawing attention. This approach worked fantastic, instead of withdrawing attention I lavished it when she was being good and only withdrew the attention when she was doing something inappropriate. It meant when I did withdraw attention it was more meaningful (ie she understood if she did something naughty she was in 'time out'). Witholding attention may be more appropriate with a boisterous dog, but in the end we want unconditional love from our dogs and should be able to give affection to our dogs when we want. I like this blog about modifying NILIF to suit the dog http://successjustclicks.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/a-new-take-on-nilifnilf/

Continue with the other behaviours though - commands for food, walks, play etc.

I understand the problems with walks, many of us go through this. Being herding dogs they do get excited by movement and being smart they are always looking for stimulation. Something like a gentle leader or halti head collar, or an ezy-walk harness will give you extra control when walking. They are a good tool in helping you teach control and focus when walking. I fit up to 50 a term at my dog club and have used them myself. If my dog's are acting up on walks I put on the Gentle leader/Halti for a while to break the cycle of silliness, then when they are showing a bit more restraint on walks they go back onto their normal collars or harness. I know many people with larger breeds use the head collars all the time for their own safety. You'll need to try them on to decide which fits better. My male has a very long thin nose and the Gentle Leader fits best, whereas I use the Halti on my female.