NO fence discussion

[corbinam]

I think the truth is a little in between what both Sharon and Silenthill are saying.

I think that whether or not a dog's instincts will override their training depends 100% on the dog's nature.

Yes, a very well trained dog could be spooked or enticed to chase. They are dogs. You can be sure of nothing 100% of the time--which is why most people say they'd rather be safe than sorry. Depending on the dog, the chance of fleeing or chasing might be 9 out of 10, or .00001 out of ten, but there are no certainties.

I have two dogs who react very differently on this spectrum. Lexi, trained from a puppy, has an excellent recall. I have never seen her take off after a bunny or a bike or a person down the road. We go out without a leash in the yard and she stands right by my side. One time she chased some geese (I allowed her to chase them, trusting her recall) but her instinct took over and she did not return when I called her. It was a terrifying 60 seconds (yes, that is the length of time when we couldn't see her). Now I am much more aware of when she is off-leash (though I admit that because of the chance of her leaving that I still allow her off-leash).

Bentley, on the other hand, can be enticed to chase just about anything. A dog, a person, a bike, a strong wind, and he's down the road and hit by a car before I can even say his name. Then, if I say his name, he doesn't even look.

Both of my dogs were trained in their recalls similarly. Both dogs are Masters level agility dogs and work for me. I believe we have a strong relationship. But their instincts and work ethic are completely different. I would NEVER take Bentley off-leash in my front yard (unfenced).

 

[Poedogruns]

I am fence-less collie, and just within the last 6 months, sheltie owner. We live along a golf course and the covenants do not allow us to put up a fence. For the last 10 years, every single walk has been on a leash. I am a responsible dog owner and part of that is keeping my dogs safe. So, I leash them every single walk. It is a habit; a way of life for us. None of the dogs bolt out the door and I walk them several times a day in all weather.

My local rescue did not even return my application. I provided solid references attesting to the care I have given my dogs and the accommodations I made for fence-less dog ownership. A very good, safe home was completely ignored simply because I did not meet their standard of the fence requirement. Exceptions exist and although fence-less, our home is a good one where the chance of our pets getting lost or hit by a car are minimal.

Responsible fence-less dog ownership can be successfully done. Luckily, a very reputed breeder was willingly to make an exception to her rule and we have Stella. I would have liked her to have been a rescue dog, but that opportunity was not to be extended to me.

 

[Sharon]

Fence

I'm not sure what he would take off after, We have bunnies where I live, he sees them in the yard and walks within 10 feet of them watching them, but not showing any interest beyond that, they of course run away, and he still doesn't pay any mind to them. He looks at squirrels in the same way.

I'd be willing to bet my life savings they Levi would never take off running after anything. When he see's his dog friends he gets excited, but he is always obedient to any commands I issue. He really strives to please his owners, much more than any other dog i've seen. He gets very very upset if he is reprimanded for any reason, he hangs his head down and lays on the couch.

It's unfair to say "not if, but when" it will happen. I pride myself in how my dog was trained, Not all dogs are created equal.

You want my bank account info now?Just kidding and by the way your boy is very handsome.I love Bi Blues.I have a Blue Merle and a Sable.I am happy that you take pride in your dogs training and that he is very well behaved as my dogs are.I take great pride in my boys and both have the best sit stay/ recall.They excell in agility.But fact is no matter how well trained they are something will get his attention and he will go.

 

[Tagg]

My neighbour, a dairy farmer, had a Border Collie cross that was trained not to go beyond the house. For the 6 years that I knew him Ben never ever strayed past the boundary he was trained to but then the new dog next door, a rottie cross, came over and put the moves on him. He ran the 400 feet to the road and across to get away from this dog managing to get across safely but when he was returning he got hit and killed. Ben was at least 9 years old when this tragedy occurred. It only takes a moment and let's face it, we are feeling pretty safe when we are at home, before things can go downhill. It's not worth it to me to have to scrape my dog off the road, or never know what happened to it. If you are going to not provide a secure yard then please, never take your eyes off your dog when the two of you are out. Don't rely on training no matter how much is in them.

 

[SilentHill]

I think the truth is a little in between what both Sharon and Silenthill are saying.

I think that whether or not a dog's instincts will override their training depends 100% on the dog's nature.

Yes, a very well trained dog could be spooked or enticed to chase. They are dogs. You can be sure of nothing 100% of the time--which is why most people say they'd rather be safe than sorry. Depending on the dog, the chance of fleeing or chasing might be 9 out of 10, or .00001 out of ten, but there are no certainties.

I have two dogs who react very differently on this spectrum. Lexi, trained from a puppy, has an excellent recall. I have never seen her take off after a bunny or a bike or a person down the road. We go out without a leash in the yard and she stands right by my side. One time she chased some geese (I allowed her to chase them, trusting her recall) but her instinct took over and she did not return when I called her. It was a terrifying 60 seconds (yes, that is the length of time when we couldn't see her). Now I am much more aware of when she is off-leash (though I admit that because of the chance of her leaving that I still allow her off-leash).

Bentley, on the other hand, can be enticed to chase just about anything. A dog, a person, a bike, a strong wind, and he's down the road and hit by a car before I can even say his name. Then, if I say his name, he doesn't even look.

Both of my dogs were trained in their recalls similarly. Both dogs are Masters level agility dogs and work for me. I believe we have a strong relationship. But their instincts and work ethic are completely different. I would NEVER take Bentley off-leash in my front yard (unfenced).

I'll agree to that, it does have a lot to do with personality. The new puppy my parents have shows much more instinctual behavior rather than obedient. Levi's personality is that there is no world that involves him not doing something he was specifically instructed not to do. It has it's downsides too, such as trying to train a new puppy. He was EXTREMELY distraught when my parents were training their new puppy. Every time the puppy was reprimanded for something he would sulk and wonder what he was doing wrong... It was so sad but that is his personality. He strives to make sure you are happy with him. We of course are always happy with him, which makes him one of the happiest dogs I have ever seen. I mean he is happy all the time, unless he is sleeping in the bed and we aren't being quiet. Then he gives us a dirty look and leaves lol.

Everyone can believe what they want, but I'd still be willing to bet that Levi would never take off. Now I would not leave him outside by himself, We are always with him, never letting him out of our sight.

I also must say.. I live in a rural neighborhood without much street traffic and a slow speed limit, all homes, no woods or anything like that. If I lived near a highway or something of that sort it might be different.

 

[SilentHill]

My neighbour, a dairy farmer, had a Border Collie cross that was trained not to go beyond the house. For the 6 years that I knew him Ben never ever strayed past the boundary he was trained to but then the new dog next door, a rottie cross, came over and put the moves on him. He ran the 400 feet to the road and across to get away from this dog managing to get across safely but when he was returning he got hit and killed. Ben was at least 9 years old when this tragedy occurred. It only takes a moment and let's face it, we are feeling pretty safe when we are at home, before things can go downhill. It's not worth it to me to have to scrape my dog off the road, or never know what happened to it. If you are going to not provide a secure yard then please, never take your eyes off your dog when the two of you are out. Don't rely on training no matter how much is in them.

If someone had been watching him this would never have happened. Like I said previously I would never let Levi out of our sight and if a foreign dog is approaching I always grab his harness, just to make sure.

 

[Sharon]

Fence

If someone had been watching him this would never have happened. Like I said previously I would never let Levi out of our sight and if a foreign dog is approaching I always grab his harness, just to make sure.

You are in denial!!! Trust me it will happen!!!! I am not going to comment anymore because you have blinders on and neeed to see all.Fact is fact!!

 

[mlamont]

It sounds like Levi is an exceptional dog and you spend much time to ensure he is very well trained. My very first sheltie (many many ) years ago would also stay right by my side… off leash in the front yard (the back yard was always fenced). I knew I had the perfect dog and she would never leave my side and would stop on command every time. Until one day… when a strange car pulled up and parked in front of my house where Simona and I were doing some yard work. I would never let Simona out of my sight, but in a fraction of a second she bolted across the street…. and to my horror, right in front of a passing car. If Simona had been two steps slower or the car was going two MPH faster she would have died right there in the street. It all happen within 3 seconds and I was helpless to stop it once it was set in motion. Those 3 seconds continue to haunt my nightmares to this day.

I was given a second chance…. and as I stood there in tears on that sidewalk holding my pup, I knew I would never risk her fate again to a good recall. Not one of my pups were ever off leash outside of a fenced enclosure from that point on. So many say or think ‘it could or would never happen to me’ . That may be true and it may never happen… but it only that’s that one time… We don't always get a second chance.

I know there are a lot of different feelings about this topic. I just feel safer being in a fenced area or on leash when we’re out for a walk, and regardless, I never take my eyes off of my pups when they are out. This is just my perference.

 

[SilentHill]

It sounds like Levi is an exceptional dog and you spend much time to ensure he is very well trained. My very first sheltie (many many ) years ago would also stay right by my side… off leash in the front yard (the back yard was always fenced). I knew I had the perfect dog and she would never leave my side and would stop on command every time. Until one day… when a strange car pulled up and parked in front of my house where Simona and I were doing some yard work. I would never let Simona out of my sight, but in a fraction of a second she bolted across the street…. and to my horror, right in front of a passing car. If Simona had been two steps slower or the car was going two MPH faster she would have died right there in the street. It all happen within 3 seconds and I was helpless to stop it once it was set in motion. Those 3 seconds continue to haunt my nightmares to this day.

I was given a second chance…. and as I stood there in tears on that sidewalk holding my pup, I knew I would never risk her fate again to a good recall. Not one of my pups were ever off leash outside of a fenced enclosure from that point on. So many say or think ‘it could or would never happen to me’ . That may be true and it may never happen… but it only that’s that one time…

I know there are a lot of different feelings about this topic. I just feel safer being in a fenced area or on leash when we’re out for a walk, and regardless, I never take my eyes off of my pups when they are out. This is just my perference.

If we are outside with our dog, we are out there for him. He doesn't go outside with us when we cannot devote our full attention to him. People have their experiences, and some believe you need a fence, well I can already attest to two separate shelties that lived their entire lives without a fenced in yard and they were allowed outside without restraint and none of them ever ran into or across the road, or took off running in any direction for that matter. Another one who is 8, same scenario, and Levi who is 2.

It's not just coincidence that none of these dogs ran away. Some people are paranoid that it "could" happen. The sun could also explode tomorrow, and Iran could nuke us at the same time. The fence you trust to keep your dogs contained could also fail, and depending on your trust level they could be gone long before you even realize it. FWIW I believe the probability of my dog running from my side for any reason is about the same as the sun exploding in my lifetime. We treat Levi as we would a child, always under a watchful eye, but with the freedom to be without restraint.

 

[hrcarol]

The 1st Sheltie I had growing up had no interest in leaving our yard. We could walk around the neighborhood w/o a leash and she'd stay right by our side. As an adult I've been lucky enough to always have a fenced yard. And 3 Shelties later I realize how rare it is, even for Shelties, to always stay within their boundaries. To me it has little to do w/ training/ or lack of training and more to do w/ instinct. Finley has such a strong instinct to chase things like cats, squirrels, bugs, cars you name it. And my other current Sheltie Rusty, chases thunder or anything that sounds like thunder and bolts from other scary sounds. I could spend all day everyday training them on where the boundaries are but, it's extremely difficult to train them to disregard their instincts and fears because they've reached the boundry. Not to the point where they could be trusted off leash anyway.
Personally, I would never own a dog without a fenced in yard. It's so nice to be able to let them into the yard where they can explore the sights and smells of the outdoors without me having to stand over their shoulder to make sure they are safe from other dogs and don't wander out of the yard.