To debark or not to debark

quite honestly i feel sorry for u all to live in a place were your dog barks once and the cops are called? allllllllll dogs bark all. if that is the laws there then they should just go all the way and say no dogs aloud. u cant enjoy the dogs obviously. u go outside and run around and play in the yard? it has to be impossible running and playing with them with ut them barking. the way your neighborhood is decribed debarking wont help either if it only quiets the bark. a retarted neighbor could still call and complain if they here them squeak.

what is this world coming too. this is why more and more rediculous laws are put into place to satisfy the complainers, when in reality they will never be satisfied people who complain will always find something to complain about. and what does legislation do? they write another bogus law. it totally infuriates me. so what happens. people like us who go about our business get screwed and in the end so do the dogs. this is when poeple need to stand up in a whole and in numbers and speek up. let your voices be heard not give in to this crap. i live on long island. evryone has a dog here. my dog barks the guy behind me his dog barks then the one down the street. its like a chain reaction of barking, lol. but u know what. at night u dont hear a peep. because people dont let there dogs bark at night. unless it is before 7. am or after 10 pm u can make as much noise as u want to. thats what society is, when u live amongst others u have to deal with noise and things that mya sometimes bug u. people who complain about things like they own the whole block need to get off there high horse or move somplace alone and secluded in the woods. but then they might call the cops on nature being to pesky :rolleyes2: see my point it will never stop once it is aloud to begin.
 
I was always against debarking until I did some research on it, and got to know a number of breeders (not just of Shelties) who, as a regular practice, debark their dogs as puppies who then go on to live happy, well adjusted lives. Veterinarians will tell you that it is a painless procedure, and it doesn't bother your dog to bark more quietly--they are not rendered mute by any means.

That being the case, it's not something I would do personally to my dog since we live in the country where it's not an issue. But it certainly offers people who do live in closer quarters with neighbors an option to have and keep the dog they love. If it ever came down to giving up my Shelties or giving up their barking, it would be a no-brainer for me. I would debark them in a heartbeat.

There have been some great opinions offered here on both sides, and a good give and take. This is a very hot topic and, as Izziebud said, we are very lucky to have this forum where such issues can be discussed and debated with respect.
 
I might as well jump in too!

And play a little devil's advocate. I'm neither for or against.

First off, Indy came to me already debarked. Has it made a difference in the sound of his barking....I can only say that I would hate to hear the sound of his barking if he WASN'T debarked! :sadsmile: It's as loud as Bacca's but perhaps not as shrill as some dogs bark is. All to say, that he has no problem communicating his wants and desires. He barks when he wants MY attention or if something weird is going on outside or if Bacca and Indy are playing. But not excessively so.

So Romeo is correct that our job, as owners, is deal with what is making them bark. If he barks, I find out what he's barking about. Barking never goes on for extended periods. So, I would focus on training first.

But many posts point to stricter and stricter dog laws that make owning a dog difficult at best. The fact is that dogs will bark, even well trained dogs. So if you live in an area that has strict by-laws and nasty neighbours, you may not have a choice. You can't train ALL barking away.

Someone raised the point as to whether debarking was really any different from spay/neuteur? We spay/neuteur our dogs because it leads to a happier, healthier environment for all dogs to live in our human communities and to control the "unwanted" pet population. Is debarking really much different from that? I tend to agree that is probably is not much different. People declaw their cats for much the same reason. I did declaw my cats. Is debarking far different than that?

That being said, I don't think I would debark my dogs unless I was left with no choice. But If I had no choice, then yes - I would.
 
shelly&sara said:
quite honestly i feel sorry for u all to live in a place were your dog barks once and the cops are called? allllllllll dogs bark all. if that is the laws there then they should just go all the way and say no dogs aloud. u cant enjoy the dogs obviously. u go outside and run around and play in the yard? it has to be impossible running and playing with them with ut them barking. the way your neighborhood is decribed debarking wont help either if it only quiets the bark. a retarted neighbor could still call and complain if they here them squeak.

what is this world coming too. this is why more and more rediculous laws are put into place to satisfy the complainers, when in reality they will never be satisfied people who complain will always find something to complain about. and what does legislation do? they write another bogus law. it totally infuriates me. so what happens. people like us who go about our business get screwed and in the end so do the dogs. this is when poeple need to stand up in a whole and in numbers and speek up. let your voices be heard not give in to this crap. i live on long island. evryone has a dog here. my dog barks the guy behind me his dog barks then the one down the street. its like a chain reaction of barking, lol. but u know what. at night u dont hear a peep. because people dont let there dogs bark at night. unless it is before 7. am or after 10 pm u can make as much noise as u want to. thats what society is, when u live amongst others u have to deal with noise and things that mya sometimes bug u. people who complain about things like they own the whole block need to get off there high horse or move somplace alone and secluded in the woods. but then they might call the cops on nature being to pesky :rolleyes2: see my point it will never stop once it is aloud to begin.
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It IS really sad here. Yes, my dogs want to bark and play with my kids but I just can't allow it. To me, that is much worse than getting them debarked and letting them enjoy themselves.

I actually had a situation here last summer when every single dog that I had was debarked. I saw the police car at the neighbors (which means only one thing around here!) and was waiting for him on my front porch! I then took him around to the dog area where only about 5 of my dogs were out and SHOWED him my debarked dogs to prove that the neighbors were simply picking on me because they knew I had multiple dogs! If I would have had even one dog that barked, they could have said that they heard my dogs. This was at 8:10 in the evening by the way! My dogs are behind my house and can only be seen my my neighbors on each side of me. It was the neighbor across the street that called!

It had gotten so bad, and the cops were here so often for unwaranted complaints, that my children began to fear the police!

In the house the dogs know the quiet command and do obey it. But it's hard to make them obey a command that they can't hear over all the barking outside LOL
 
Interesting insight! Here we have restrictions on the number of dogs and type of dogs depending on where we stay. Flats are allowed 1 dog only (small or medium sized - shelties fall under medium. Both number and size rules are often flouted.) and landed properties are allowed a maximum of 3. All the sheltie breeders here dont have more than 5 shelties in a flat or landed property. The only person I know who has had his shelties debarked is a sheltie breeder who has 5 shelties (most with grandgables somewhere up the line) and who also breeds and has 3 huskies and a norfolk terrier. While he lives in a landed property, it's not big (I've been there) and all the dogs are kept indoors (in cages or in a small room for the shelties) but for 1 hour or so each day in the late afternoon.

I'm wondering if an argument can be made that if you control the number of dogs a household can have, you reduce the amount and volume of barking and hence the likelihood and volume of complaints, and as a result, the dogs won't have to be put through the debarking procedure. This is probably a necessity here given the density of the residential areas and also won't be lobbied against since we're used to being regulated heavily on most areas of our lives!! But it's something to think about. Getting what we want (many shelties) over putting them through something that is unnecessary (debarking).

I think at the end of the day it really boils down to your situation, whether you've tried every possible thing under the sun, and if you're comfortable with doing it. I don't have 12 shelties (though I would so love that!), I have one, who's a real barker, and the people on my estate are not very neighbourly. The coins in a can has worked brilliantly so far, so no complaints from anyone. I remember tho' my old sheltie had very bad separation anxiety starting about 1-2 years before he passed on and would bark and howl and whine ALL DAY. I had complaints then (same neighbourhood). The authorities came but somehow we managed to hold them off. We hired a domestic helper just for him, just so there was always someone in the house and he wouldn't have that anxiety and make that much noise!

I've been drilling into Romeo the need to be quiet most of the time while he's at home (save for alert barking when there are people at the door, or when I get home and he's excited and happy to see me). He must have caught on to this because if he does bark indoors outside of these times, he does it QUIETLY!!! Soft bark! I wonder if I can put that on cue!
 
romeosangiovese said:
Interesting insight! Here we have restrictions on the number of dogs and type of dogs depending on where we stay. Flats are allowed 1 dog only (small or medium sized - shelties fall under medium. Both number and size rules are often flouted.) and landed properties are allowed a maximum of 3. All the sheltie breeders here dont have more than 5 shelties in a flat or landed property. The only person I know who has had his shelties debarked is a sheltie breeder who has 5 shelties (most with grandgables somewhere up the line) and who also breeds and has 3 huskies and a norfolk terrier. While he lives in a landed property, it's not big (I've been there) and all the dogs are kept indoors (in cages or in a small room for the shelties) but for 1 hour or so each day in the late afternoon.

I'm wondering if an argument can be made that if you control the number of dogs a household can have, you reduce the amount and volume of barking and hence the likelihood and volume of complaints, and as a result, the dogs won't have to be put through the debarking procedure. This is probably a necessity here given the density of the residential areas and also won't be lobbied against since we're used to being regulated heavily on most areas of our lives!! But it's something to think about. Getting what we want (many shelties) over putting them through something that is unnecessary (debarking).

I think at the end of the day it really boils down to your situation, whether you've tried every possible thing under the sun, and if you're comfortable with doing it. I don't have 12 shelties (though I would so love that!), I have one, who's a real barker, and the people on my estate are not very neighbourly. The coins in a can has worked brilliantly so far, so no complaints from anyone. I remember tho' my old sheltie had very bad separation anxiety starting about 1-2 years before he passed on and would bark and howl and whine ALL DAY. I had complaints then (same neighbourhood). The authorities came but somehow we managed to hold them off. We hired a domestic helper just for him, just so there was always someone in the house and he wouldn't have that anxiety and make that much noise!

I've been drilling into Romeo the need to be quiet most of the time while he's at home (save for alert barking when there are people at the door, or when I get home and he's excited and happy to see me). He must have caught on to this because if he does bark indoors outside of these times, he does it QUIETLY!!! Soft bark! I wonder if I can put that on cue!
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Controlling the amount might help but I have a three neighbors around me that only have one or two dogs and all of their dogs bark MuCH more than all of mine together! When they are out they can see more things and therefore bark at more. One is neglected and barks for long periods of time when it wants to be let back inside. They tie it out on a chain and ignore it. Another neighbor ties theirs out on the front lawn to do their business and they can see all the comings and goings of the neighbor hood and bark. Another neighbor has one big mutt that has a doggy door and he can get out at night and bark at the wild life. So, in my situation, I have controlled the amount of barking from my several dogs by controlling what they can see and the hours that they are out. BUT...if any of the other dogs bother someone, I am targeted because they know that I have several!

Also, many breeders get older dogs that have previously developed very bad habits and it is hard to introduce it to our current dogs and then teach it not to bark. One on one might be possible, but if you let one barker out with a bunch of non barkers, somehow it doesn't learn how NOT to bark but all the other learn HOW to bark LOL
 
I try not to judge. This is such a personal decision, one I hope yould be made with an eye toward need versus convenience. Our family does not debark.
 
They do have number limits here. Not because of the barking, but because of PETA and other animal rights extremist groups who have lobbied for such laws to get rid of us 'bad dog breeders' who are taking homes from the dogs at the pound by selling our puppies, and to push toward their goal of one day liberating all animals so none of us own any. It's kind of like Hitler's reign really... Take away things in small increments, at first things the ordinary person may not see as being so bad because it doesn't affect them, but progressing eventually to things that will take away all rights of pet owners.
Here in Louisville, you can have a max of 3 dogs. However, if you wish to buy a kennel license ($150 per 5 dogs), and welcome animal control in whenever they so choose to visit your home unannounced for inspection (to make sure us bad dog breeders are all in line) then you may own as many dogs as you like (and if you refuse to let them come in as they like, there goes your kennel license).
As a breeder, a limit on my dogs does nothing for me. You aren't going to get very far in your breeding program when limited to just a couple of dogs, and to progress, you have to start placing out top dogs that you would otherwise keep to enhance your breeding program.
Controlling the amount might help but I have a three neighbors around me that only have one or two dogs and all of their dogs bark MuCH more than all of mine together!
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That's the situation here as well- the neighbor behind me has a dachsund out on a chain all day, and all it does is bark. The neighbor on the side of me has 2 dogs out full time, never let into the house, who run the fence any time mine come out to get them barking. I am the only one who is being considerate about the barking. I've only got the 4 out at any time, with the rest running the house, and then all but 4 are in their crates at night. It's not like mine live bad lives (I've even got all but the litter involved in one performance event or another and/or conformation). They're very happy dogs. I do think I do the best I can at keeping them quiet. However, I will not consider lowering my numbers to help reduce the noise, especially not when my neighbors dogs make more than mine, and if I ever run into trouble because of my dogs barking, they will be debarked.
 
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Callie was debarked before I got her. She really isn't a barker at all- barks when I get home in the evenings and when I'm too slow with the food. she doesn't bark at everything under the sun unlike some other dogs that I know. her bark sounds like hup hup. not very loud at all. If it was the only way to keep my pup, I would do it too.
 
Liz was debarked when she came here. She's sure not perfectly quiet and she NEVER stops barking. She was 18 mos when we got her. I wish she'd stop barking so much but wow she is persistent and a pest! She's slowly but surely teaching Titan to bark more often - though we're trying hard to keep him reasonable.

She DOES make Zoe bark much more than Zoe used to. It's really annoying. I sure wish someone had just taught her not to bark so often but they obviously didn't.

You CANNOT get a dog debarked around here unless you are a breeder and "in the know". I tried. I had a horrendously barking dog who just would not quit and no vet in the province would do it.

I think that's wrong. If it means they get to keep their home and stay with their people, why not? Some dogs just will not stop - especially if you didn't have them from the get got. I have to work four hours a day and can't keep getting up to shut Liz up. For that reason, Titan is still crated in the mornings while I work so he doesn't learn her bad habits. The rest of the day, I keep them quiet and teach him not to bark all the time, etc., but I can't do that 24/7 - I have to work.

I really think it's not a problem. People have all kinds of surgery these days, necessary and not necessary. At least if it's available legally, it's done by a qualified vet and done safely. If it's hard to find anyone to do it, more dogs get "chucked" to the pound because they cannot put up with a barking barking barking dog and then the dog loses its life or has a very poor quality of life.

I think it's a reasonable option for a constantly barking dog and should stay legal and available so, for people who want it done, it's done properly and safely.
 
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