But what clicker training doesn't do is set limits. I had a dog in open that was 100% clicker trained. Seemed like a good idea at the time. She was also extremely sound sensitive. So she would break stays at the smallest sharp noise. But she would also break stays just because she felt like it. There were never any consequences, and it was a fun game, so why not? Mom will just come and get me and put me back. Made me crazy. So never again will I train a stay with 100% positive methods.
It is honestly very easy to get an extremely reliable sit/down stay with clicker training and positive reinforcement, so I'm wondering if your negative experiences are due to the knowledge/ability of the trainer you're training with, as opposed to the methods. Even within clicker training there is a wide variety of methods - some better than others. I would probably get frustrated too if I didn't have success with a specific method. Come on over to Canada - I'll show you a whole other side of training, and then we can discuss training methods over a few drinks since we're both pretty passionate about it
I have to say I'm a little confused by all the acrimony here, and the debate of "positive" vs "nonpositive." is it possible folks are using the same words to mean different things? I can only speak for myself, and I am not training my dogs for agility or any kind of competition--they are retired conformation champions, and the only training I am interested in is that they be well-behaved and listen to me when I am trying to keep them safe, so my situation is less intense than many of yours. They do wear "choke" collars while out walking--that's for safety, not punishment. And they don't pull at all, so the collars don't tighten against their necks. I will yell a loud NO or a harsh sound to get their attention and make them stop an undesirable behavior; I would never in a million years hit them. I will say "bad dog!" and go over and physically carry one away from somewhere they shouldn't be (like eating bird seed) if all else fails. I will then reprimand the dog and put him or her inside; two minutes later, all is forgiven, on both sides. Is that "positive"? Or not?
People who love animals tend to be fairly passionate about what they believe is best for those animals - and there's nothing wrong with that. This is one of the better threads on this forum because it is making people discuss, question, consider, and justify their point of view. Opinions are easy - everyone has an opinion - but a thread like this forces you to consider whether you are able to justify the opinion you have. If you can't justify it, it may be time to consider changing your opinion. I can't count the number of times a thread on here has made me reconsider an opinion I considered a fact.
When it comes to defining words like "balanced" and "positive", there will be a range on the spectrum. A lot of people on here do compete, and so some of us differentiate how we train for behaviour vs. how we train for dog sports. That's why a lot of us clarify by giving examples of behaviours we're training.
There's nothing wrong with a loose choke chain - it doesn't make you a "negative" trainer. The type of trainer you are has less to do with the equipment you use than it does with your temperament and the way you interact with your dog. As I mentioned in a previous post, when training for dogsports I am positive only, when it comes to behaviour I am a balanced trainer (with a large skew to the positive side). When I'm training dogs for behaviour, I always keep the concept of a "goodwill bank" in my head. Like any bank account, you don't want to have an overdraft on your goodwill account.
I increase the goodwill I have with my dogs by playing, conditioning, training, snuggling, and interacting with them. I withdraw from my goodwill bank when I raise my voice, get frustrated, or use intimidating body language. The funny thing is, the more goodwill I put in, the less I have to take out because of the relationship. The majority of the time, if one of my dogs is misbehaving, all I have to do is a soft, low toned "ah ah ah", and the dog stops. So if you are continuously forming a bond with your dogs and working at having a positive relationship, when you do have to make a withdrawal from the goodwill bank account at least there will be plenty left in there to ensure the relationship continues to thrive. As long as you are depositing more goodwill than you are withdrawing, I would consider you a balanced but fair owner.
