Why is he registered as merle?

[MTMarPan]

As I was looking AT Marius' papers the other day I noticed that he was registered as a Sable Merle and White. I thought to myself...hrm, where did that come from? He doesn't have a merle in his family for at least 3 generations.

So here is my question. Can that merle gene be carried on for so long without showing up anywhere? I don't think he looks merle at all, but I could be wrong.

If him and Pandora (sable and white, her mom is tri-factored I believe) were to have puppies what colors would I be looking at?

 

[Calliesmom]

As I was looking AT Marius' papers the other day I noticed that he was registered as a Sable Merle and White. I thought to myself...hrm, where did that come from? He doesn't have a merle in his family for at least 3 generations.

So here is my question. Can that merle gene be carried on for so long without showing up anywhere? I don't think he looks merle at all, but I could be wrong.

If him and Pandora (sable and white, her mom is tri-factored I believe) were to have puppies what colors would I be looking at?

don't know about the registration
but this site is cool to find about about potential colors
http://www.athro.com/sheltie.html

 

[Narmowen]

As I was looking AT Marius' papers the other day I noticed that he was registered as a Sable Merle and White. I thought to myself...hrm, where did that come from? He doesn't have a merle in his family for at least 3 generations.

So here is my question. Can that merle gene be carried on for so long without showing up anywhere? I don't think he looks merle at all, but I could be wrong.

If him and Pandora (sable and white, her mom is tri-factored I believe) were to have puppies what colors would I be looking at?

Yes, it's called a cryptic merle. (That doesn't mean he's a cryptic merle, or that his mother/father was one, just that it's possible.)

It depends on what color he is. If he's pure for sable, then he can only produce sables. If he's tri factored (if he has a tri parent), he could produce sables or tri's. If she is tri-factored, with him (if he's tri factored), they could produce sables and tri's.

I'd need to know what color both of their parents were in order to tell you more detail.

 

[tofu pup]

I don't think it's possible for the merle gene to "disappear" and then reappear a few generations later... either the breeder made a mistake, and mis-registered him as a sable merle, or someone is being dishonest about the dog's progenitors. Someone might correct me on this.

I looked back at your intro posts and found your pictures of Marius, to see if he looked like a sable merle. He does have some dappling/fading on his forelegs, but I can't tell if that's just the lighting (because otherwise, he looks like a regular, trifactored sable to me).

 

[tofu pup]

Yes, it's called a cryptic merle. (That doesn't mean he's a cryptic merle, or that his mother/father was one, just that it's possible.)

Geeze, I forgot about cryptic merles.

But if you went three generations back, that means you would've had to have had two cryptic merles (say, Marius's grandsire, who passed the merle gene on to Marius's sire, who was also a cryptic merle), right? That just seems so statistically unlikely (not impossible, of course) - cryptic merles are pretty rare.

On the other hand, if Marius is a sable merle, he isn't showing it much (I can only see possible merling on his forelegs), so maybe there's a genetic history of "underexpressed", and therefore cryptic, merles. Curiouser and curiouser!

 

[Narmowen]

If a breeder didn't know what to look for, it can be easy to miss the signs of a sable merle, or a very-underexpressed blue merle.

 

[MTMarPan]

Update on this one. As Marius is growing into his fuzziness. He is showing more and more merle coloring around the collar (what I like to call his Elvis burns). I think the registration was right. Neither of his parents were merle, but I did remember that a previous litter brother of his had a lot of merle coloring. I am guessing one of his parents was a cryptic.

The significant other is not fond of merles, but I am secretly hoping that if we let Marius and Pandora have a litter that we get a nice little rainbow.

 

[tofu pup]

The significant other is not fond of merles, but I am secretly hoping that if we let Marius and Pandora have a litter that we get a nice little rainbow.

Please don't think me rude to say it, but breeding a litter in a responsible manner is no small undertaking, and color should be the last goal of a breeding-program. Genetic health, proper temperament, and correct conformation are of utmost importance, and responsible breeders are willing to go to great lengths to educate themselves on these goals and do what it takes to breed towards them. On behalf of the breed we all love so well, I encourage you to think long and hard before breeding your dogs.

 

[MTMarPan]

Oh of course. Although I am new, I am not stepping into anything blindly. Neither are old enough to even consider breeding them. So far both are in excellent health and are very well mannered and intelligent dogs. I have done research on the breed standard and I would never have puppies brought into this world that were not healthy or wanted.
I appreciate any advice you all would give. If anybody knows of any reputable breeders or handlers in Montana I would love to hear that as well

 

[tofu pup]

The American Shetland Sheepdog Association is the parent club for the breed in the United States. You can also read through their code of ethics and suggestions for those considering breeding. You can also use their breeder referral system and website to find breeders and member clubs in a given area.

Unfortunately, these seem to be scarce in and around Montana. Perhaps a better approach would be to attend a few all-breed dog shows, where you can meet some Sheltie breeders and perhaps find someone nearby who could mentor you. This is also an excellent opportunity to consider how your dogs might measure up against the Standard. This website is that of a dog show superintendent that oversees quite a few shows in the western states. Under "upcoming shows", I see quite a few events in MT, ID and elsewhere that may be close to you.

As you have studied the Standard, I trust that you will make an objective, honest evaluation of your dogs virtues and faults as potential breeding stock. In the end, the choice of whether or not to breed is entirely up to you.