Bacca bit me!!!!!

[OntarioSheltie]

Well, you all know my position: I live by the methods of The Monks of New Skete, who wrote The Art of Raising a Puppy and How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend. It's possible to be firm, in control and never have to resort to physical punishment. I know that because with my two dogs before Shelties, I used to punish by hitting. Sometimes I lie in bed apologizing and praying that they can hear. :sadsmile:

What I love best about this Forum is that we can share, learn -- and tolerate differences.

I think my beliefs most closely match Chris.

I'm starting to believe that 'dominant' is the wrong word or that maybe its become a taboo term. I think I believe in establishing dominance in my household, but I only believe in 'dominance training' as an absolute last resort in extreme cases. I believe in positive reinforcement first and foremost, but its not going to work 100% of the time for every dog.

I believe that dogs need to know their place in a family/household and that this can be accomplished most of the time without getting physical, especially with shelties. I think we forget that withholding attention and ignoring unwanted behavior is still punishment, since dogs want our attention first and foremost. My trainer refers to these as 'positive punishments.'

Despite using the taboo term 'dominance,' I really like this article and have referred to it before.

http://www.bigpawdesigns.com/gewatoasdowi.html

Also practicing NILIF, making them sit and stay every time they go through a doorway or when they're given anything, etc. are great ways of asserting 'dominance' in a gentle way.

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

That being said, I also wanted to say, good job with your boys Barb. Some times they need a reminder of the rules of the house, just like kids. Since Toby is new he still tries to push my buttons so I have an idea of what you're going through.

 

[RonandJan]

lol Barb, good to hear!!

I woulda had the same reaction, smack and asking him what the hell...? lol
After all is said and done I am only human, too ... I know that may be disputed by some hahahahah
I just disagree with the ole alpha roll as a training method, etc

Irene, you ( and me too!) would make such great Shelties, wouldn't we? Ahhh to be reincarnated as a well loved Sheltie!

And yes, it is our natural instinct to swat away whatever is hurting us. Barb I am glad to hear that Bacca is back to being his wonderful self. He just had a little lapse into puppyhood for the moment.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

Irene, you ( and me too!) would make such great Shelties, wouldn't we? Ahhh to be reincarnated as a well loved Sheltie!

...

hahaha you got that right.. a lil neurotic, a lil loud, a lil snappy and a whole load o' fun

 

[ChargerOnDavins]

We are all entitled to our opinions. I do not allow bad behavior, and my canines are fantastic. I love my dogs like I do any other member of my family.

What I do works for me, and everyone else who I have given the advice to, that's all that I can attest to.

 

[BarbV]

It's an interesting discussion that's evolving here (let's just keep it nice!)

I think what we're dealing with is different understanding/interpretations of the words "dominant" or "alpha".

I don't believe 100% in what Caesar teaches, but he does have a few techniques which I think are pretty effective, without being punishing. When he speaks about being confidant and owning your space that makes sense.

I don't believe in the alpha roll, but neither have I seen Caesar employ it often, though I admit I'm not a regular watcher. I think there was only a couple of times where I though it was too much. Mostly I see him doing the "touch" which, to me, is a subtle physical way of saying "Off"!

I've mostly beaten the crazy barking at the hair dryer by Indy just by employing abit of "touch". Instead of barking crazily the whole time, he know will bark only a few times when I start, then go lie on his bed. The "touch" is not painful nor punishing....it's more like "pay attention, this is mine".

Of course there are other, more positive methods out there, and I use them too. But I think there is a time and place for everything.

At the moment your dog is biting you, your only interest at that point is get him off. Hence the whack or whatever I did (I really don't remember). But then following up with more positive ways of dealing with resource guarding (like the bone play) is the way to go. That being said, the bone play only worked because when my dogs are being "normal" if I say "off" they will back away. To get them to the point of understanding "off" required a whole lot of other training....which did include me being the dominant. one. That is: "You don't get it until I say so".

Hope this makes sense.

 

[ChargerOnDavins]

It's an interesting discussion that's evolving here (let's just keep it nice!)

I think what we're dealing with is different understanding/interpretations of the words "dominant" or "alpha".

I don't believe 100% in what Caesar teaches, but he does have a few techniques which I think are pretty effective, without being punishing. When he speaks about being confidant and owning your space that makes sense.

I don't believe in the alpha roll, but neither have I seen Caesar employ it often, though I admit I'm not a regular watcher. I think there was only a couple of times where I though it was too much. Mostly I see him doing the "touch" which, to me, is a subtle physical way of saying "Off"!

I've mostly beaten the crazy barking at the hair dryer by Indy just by employing abit of "touch". Instead of barking crazily the whole time, he know will bark only a few times when I start, then go lie on his bed. The "touch" is not painful nor punishing....it's more like "pay attention, this is mine".

Of course there are other, more positive methods out there, and I use them too. But I think there is a time and place for everything.

At the moment your dog is biting you, your only interest at that point is get him off. Hence the whack or whatever I did (I really don't remember). But then following up with more positive ways of dealing with resource guarding (like the bone play) is the way to go. That being said, the bone play only worked because when my dogs are being "normal" if I say "off" they will back away. To get them to the point of understanding "off" required a whole lot of other training....which did include me being the dominant. one. That is: "You don't get it until I say so".

Hope this makes sense.

What you say makes sense. Whatever works for you. Your right we do use alpha and dominant interchangeably, myself included.

However, I think the fact that everything is so positive and there is no negative correlation with doing wrong has bred the generation of children (gen y) who all feel entitled to everything, have no respect for their elders, cannot keep a job, cannot stay commited to one person, abandon their children, and everything is all about them. I am a part of generation Y myself, and I am sickened by many in my generation cohort.

I think for children, and very intelligent dogs, a certain degree of "alpha" needs to be employed. For lesser intelligent dogs (I have two) they are easily trained in a positive manner for the most part. I think it depends. Caesar does use a lot of alpha mentality on his show. None of my methods are stolen from him, mine came from pack observation. He only reaffirmed many of my beliefs, although we disagree on a few things.

 

[BarbV]

You are a dog trainer? If so, you will be very welcome to the fourm!

Most of us are just good pet owners trying to do what is best with the information that we have researched. So it's often trial by error. And some of the information is biased, of course.

 

[SheltieChe]

I think Caesar does not clearly defines terms from the get go and thus so much confusion ... people make their own assumptions about which words mean what... dominance is a presence, like aura, nothing else... you see some people who are born leaders walk in the room and they usually not the loudest or tallest or anything else special but people naturally tend to follow them...
same goes for control- it is a relationship first, control is earned by humans because of respect to each other, and not because humans do alpha rolls and pinch ears and do not let their dogs to eat until humans have eaten...

 

[ChargerOnDavins]

I think Caesar does not clearly defines terms from the get go and thus so much confusion ... people make their own assumptions about which words mean what... dominance is a presence, like aura, nothing else... you see some people who are born leaders walk in the room and they usually not the loudest or tallest or anything else special but people naturally tend to follow them...
same goes for control- it is a relationship first, control is earned by humans because of respect to each other, and not because humans do alpha rolls and pinch ears and do not let their dogs to eat until humans have eaten...

You have already made the primal error for canines - comparing humans to dogs. They are nothing alike. Dogs are much more likable, But seriously...

 

[Toffee's Mom]

You have already made the primal error for canines - comparing humans to dogs. They are nothing alike. Dogs are much more likable, But seriously...

Weird, I hear that from compulsion type trainers all the time, but its funny how that type of thought always goes back to human version of dominance and all kinds of misdguided and wrong scientific evidence... which is it? Because comparing is what you did when you said in the thread earlier: "However, I think the fact that everything is so positive and there is no negative correlation with doing wrong has bred the generation of children (gen y) who all feel entitled to everything, have no respect for their elders, cannot keep a job, cannot stay commited to one person, abandon their children, and everything is all about them. I am a part of generation Y myself, and I am sickened by many in my generation cohort.

I think for children, and very intelligent dogs, a certain degree of "alpha" needs to be employed. For lesser intelligent dogs (I have two) they are easily trained in a positive manner for the most part. I think it depends. Caesar does use a lot of alpha mentality on his show. None of my methods are stolen from him, mine came from pack observation. He only reaffirmed many of my beliefs, although we disagree on a few things."

So, which is it it's not okay for positive enforcement people to use human emotions, but ok for the other camp?

Compulsion doesn't work properly for most because humans aren't meant to abuse their dogs with physical touch all the time, have bad timing, use alpha rolls, choke chains and god knows what else.
I have done Schutzhund work and Agility and trained with both theories. I am very sorry I had done true compulsion in the past... Those methods will not work to produce a happy working dog. That's why I am so much against it now, can you honestly say you have even tried positive enforcement only? Yes or No? So perhaps you don't have all the information about the methods you're criticizing so heavily