?????It's not our job to pre-rinse the plates????MMM.
P.S. Sorry Ms Barb that your thumb is still sore.
Bacca bit me!!!!!
- Thread starter BarbV
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?????It's not our job to pre-rinse the plates????MMM.
P.S. Sorry Ms Barb that your thumb is still sore.
ChargerOnDavins
Forums Regular
I am sorry to hear that. if a dog bites you, it is my opinion that he/she doesn't respect you as an alpha. A subordinate NEVER bites the alpha. This is grounds for a serious fight. That being said, it is time to re-establish your dominance.
I have four shelties, they see me as an alpha to the point that they never run off, I don't need to leash them, they always look for my command, and they're genuinely fantastic dogs, and very happy as a result.
People tend to equate not dominant with unhappiness in canines, but humanizing dogs is typically what causes this dominant type of behavior to begin with, and is counterproductive.
A dog is truly happy when it knows it's place in your pack, which is below any and all humans.
Some disagree with hitting your dog. I disagree with physical abuse. Smacking your dog on the bottom after it initially bites you is not abuse, it is correcting a bad behavior. Your dog needs to understand who is boss. Dominate the dog, make sure they spend time on their back, (after calming down and becoming submissive) with you over them. Any bites should be counteracted with AT LEAST a strong touch. Don't HURT the animal, but assert your position. A dog needs to "fear" it's alpha... but our definition of fear is different, to a dog, it's basically a respect for the alpha. If the dog acts out of line, it needs to know there are consequences.
Two of my dogs don't need to be touched when they are bad, a yell or noise scares them enough, and they discontinue the behavior. Dogs who continue the negative behavior and seem unaffected by words, need to be reminded that you are serious.
In a pack, if the alpha is challenged, it could ultimately lead to the subordinate dog's death. Obviously, nobody is telling you to kill your dog, just helping shed some light on the idea that smacking your dog is bad.
Look at children these days, you can't spank them at all. Look how we've all turned out. We are all entitled to everything, we don't listen, we disregard authority, we don't apply ourselves, we don't respect our elders, let alone our parents, and school grades are worse than ever.
Ideally, a minimal smack on the bottom of a bad dog will get the point across and really only have to happen once. What do I know, I have four well-behaved dogs, worked at a vet for a few years, and offer puppy training to local people in the area.
Again, we need to accept that dogs are dogs, not people, not kids, not toys, not inanimate objects, and not anything other than a canine.
Sorry for the 10 page essay, I hope it helped. I am new on these forums, so I figured I would jump right in to a discussion I felt I could offer a valuable two cents on.
I have four shelties, they see me as an alpha to the point that they never run off, I don't need to leash them, they always look for my command, and they're genuinely fantastic dogs, and very happy as a result.
People tend to equate not dominant with unhappiness in canines, but humanizing dogs is typically what causes this dominant type of behavior to begin with, and is counterproductive.
A dog is truly happy when it knows it's place in your pack, which is below any and all humans.
Some disagree with hitting your dog. I disagree with physical abuse. Smacking your dog on the bottom after it initially bites you is not abuse, it is correcting a bad behavior. Your dog needs to understand who is boss. Dominate the dog, make sure they spend time on their back, (after calming down and becoming submissive) with you over them. Any bites should be counteracted with AT LEAST a strong touch. Don't HURT the animal, but assert your position. A dog needs to "fear" it's alpha... but our definition of fear is different, to a dog, it's basically a respect for the alpha. If the dog acts out of line, it needs to know there are consequences.
Two of my dogs don't need to be touched when they are bad, a yell or noise scares them enough, and they discontinue the behavior. Dogs who continue the negative behavior and seem unaffected by words, need to be reminded that you are serious.
In a pack, if the alpha is challenged, it could ultimately lead to the subordinate dog's death. Obviously, nobody is telling you to kill your dog, just helping shed some light on the idea that smacking your dog is bad.
Look at children these days, you can't spank them at all. Look how we've all turned out. We are all entitled to everything, we don't listen, we disregard authority, we don't apply ourselves, we don't respect our elders, let alone our parents, and school grades are worse than ever.
Ideally, a minimal smack on the bottom of a bad dog will get the point across and really only have to happen once. What do I know, I have four well-behaved dogs, worked at a vet for a few years, and offer puppy training to local people in the area.
Again, we need to accept that dogs are dogs, not people, not kids, not toys, not inanimate objects, and not anything other than a canine.
Sorry for the 10 page essay, I hope it helped. I am new on these forums, so I figured I would jump right in to a discussion I felt I could offer a valuable two cents on.
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
Hey there
welcome to the Forums!
I resectfully but completely disagree with pretty much everything of the above. See the against dominance threads etc, which most of the Forum now know where I stand. lol
My opinion is that you are quoting non scientific and outdated methods, not supported anymore by most respectable dog trainers, as all of the above is NOT based on the theory of learning.
Dogs are NOT there to dominate their owners in general, and have changed through their partnership with Humans over thousands of years of domestication.
Even new evidence changes the way the domincance theory is being viewed and needs to be demystefied, even when it does come to wolves.
ChargerOnDavins
Forums Regular
Thank you for the welcome, and you absolutely have the right to disagree.
I can however tell you that my "outdated methods" work best with animals who do not respond to positive reinforcement solely. Classifying all dogs as responsive to only positive reinforcement is just as ignorant (in my opinion) as assuming all people of a race, religion, or any other possible stereotypical attribute are the same.
I also have many friends who view dogs the way you do, and I would say that I have by far the best-behaved, happy dogs on the planet. I do respect your opinion.
When i worked at the vet, I was always given the aggressive dogs, fear biter or aggressive biter, it was my responsibility.
I know what works from thousands of different dogs and my experiences. If what you do truly works for you, and can justify your beliefs to yourself, that is ALL that matters. I commend you on your abilities in that sense. I know what shocks and awes EVERYONE who comes in contact with me walking four dogs, or with four dogs in my home, is how well-mannered and fantastic my pack is.
Thanks again for the welcome!
Chris
Premium Member
Well, you all know my position: I live by the methods of The Monks of New Skete, who wrote The Art of Raising a Puppy and How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend. It's possible to be firm, in control and never have to resort to physical punishment. I know that because with my two dogs before Shelties, I used to punish by hitting. Sometimes I lie in bed apologizing and praying that they can hear. :sadsmile:
What I love best about this Forum is that we can share, learn -- and tolerate differences.
What I love best about this Forum is that we can share, learn -- and tolerate differences.
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
Thank you for the welcome, and you absolutely have the right to disagree.
I can however tell you that my "outdated methods" work best with animals who do not respond to positive reinforcement solely. Classifying all dogs as responsive to only positive reinforcement is just as ignorant (in my opinion) as assuming all people of a race, religion, or any other possible stereotypical attribute are the same.
I also have many friends who view dogs the way you do, and I would say that I have by far the best-behaved, happy dogs on the planet. I do respect your opinion.
When i worked at the vet, I was always given the aggressive dogs, fear biter or aggressive biter, it was my responsibility.
I know what works from thousands of different dogs and my experiences. If what you do truly works for you, and can justify your beliefs to yourself, that is ALL that matters. I commend you on your abilities in that sense. I know what shocks and awes EVERYONE who comes in contact with me walking four dogs, or with four dogs in my home, is how well-mannered and fantastic my pack is.
Thanks again for the welcome!
lol, ok, let's continue this somewhere else as I am ready to discuss anytime
Not want to highjack Barb's thread... hehehe
You mentioned working with these animals at the Vets, I dare say much of what you describe of course fixes the problem temporarily as the dog is scared, but that behaviour WILL be only surpressed. However it causes distrust and will not be fostering a working relationship as it will cause the dog to shut down and distrust people.
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
Well, to weigh in on the middle ground....when Bacca bit me, I'm pretty sure I gave him a good whack to release me. When you are dealing with an aggressive behaviour, I don't think its the time to play nice and say "please sit"
But then I followed up with some more positive training with the bones. Offering and taking away, at my whim and under my control.
And after only 1 week, I feel like I've got these boys back under control again.
All to say that there is a time and place for everything.
But then I followed up with some more positive training with the bones. Offering and taking away, at my whim and under my control.
And after only 1 week, I feel like I've got these boys back under control again.
All to say that there is a time and place for everything.
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
lol Barb, good to hear!!
I woulda had the same reaction, smack and asking him what the hell...? lol
After all is said and done I am only human, too ... I know that may be disputed by some
hahahahahI just disagree with the ole alpha roll as a training method, etc
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
frankly if I tried to hit/ swat/ push Che- he would tell me off. He has a way of putting his mouth on my hand just like a warning... " human, you are going tooo far"... It is not a biting, just his way of saying " I do not like it, do not agree and prepared to defend my ground" and yes, he is an animal and this is normal for animal to protect themselves with their teeth... or something like" You can possibly smack me once but you will not do it second time thing"... anyway I am ok with that and respect it.
When he is going over the top though, like barkfest or carrying on when "sheep" is leaving, I need to get hold of his neck/scruff/ ruff to hold it and tell him to settle... It is not emotional, there is no alpha beta or any other soup numbers. I am not angry or frustrated, just is, my rules... my play...
I never been enamored by this pack theory and need to set pack orders...you can not fit human emotions into animal world...
When he is going over the top though, like barkfest or carrying on when "sheep" is leaving, I need to get hold of his neck/scruff/ ruff to hold it and tell him to settle... It is not emotional, there is no alpha beta or any other soup numbers. I am not angry or frustrated, just is, my rules... my play...
I never been enamored by this pack theory and need to set pack orders...you can not fit human emotions into animal world...
ChargerOnDavins
Forums Regular
lol, ok, let's continue this somewhere else as I am ready to discuss anytime
Not want to highjack Barb's thread... hehehe
You mentioned working with these animals at the Vets, I dare say much of what you describe of course fixes the problem temporarily as the dog is scared, but that behaviour WILL be only surpressed. However it causes distrust and will not be fostering a working relationship as it will cause the dog to shut down and distrust people.
That's weird my 13 year old and 11 year old are fantastic and extroverts. Very happy dogs.
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