Black parents producing brown puppies

A

ashriver12

Forums Novice
Everything I thought I knew about sheltie colors and genetics has been thrown out the window!
How is it possible for two black Shelties (bi black male and tried female) to produce what looks like a sable puppy?!
The puppy does not appear to be "liver" colored.

Should the dog with the responsible gene be fixed? I do not want unacceptable colors. Only standard.
 
I believe I read somewhere that there's a relatively rare, recessive gene that in the homozygous state produces a liver-colored Sheltie. You may have simply had the luck of getting a male and female both of which carried that gene. Is the nose brown, or chocolate? If so, I'd think that's what you've got, and you wouldn't want to breed either dog, since both carry the gene. (My off-the-cuff opinion only!)
 
Both black genes are recessive to sable, so it is not possible for black dogs to produce sable. Either something else bred the bitch, or you have a different color gene at work.
 
ClantyreSheltie said:
Both black genes are recessive to sable, so it is not possible for black dogs to produce sable. Either something else bred the bitch, or you have a different color gene at work.
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According to Sheltie Talk there are cases of recessive sables and dominant blacks. Also (which is most likely) again in Sheltie Talk) A dog occasionally will appear to be tri, but is really a sable with excessive black
 
What year was Sheltie talk published?

I think it's very likely that it was published prior to our understanding of color genetics, especially genes outside the Agouti series and how they interact.

Dominant black (the K series) is set in Shelties to resessive k/k. We don't have K (solid) or kbr (brindle) in Shelties anymore. Since you don't accidentally get a dominant gene from a pool of only recessive genes, if a "sheltie" carries dominant black or brindle, it's a mix.

As to tris really looking like sables, I've only seen this in shelters, where they don't have a good grasp of colors (and why should they?) and they call a shaded sable a "tri-color". But anyone breeding a dog should be able to tell what color is it.

Pictures are always a good thing.
 
It was in the 1985 revised book. I don't know if that is still something that is accurate today, but I put it out there as that is what the book said.

I would also like to see pictures to see if the tri female is really a tri. I know people think Dusty is a tri, he is a sable, but he is really dark. So maybe that is the case here, just mistaken color identity.
 
But again, Shelties are pretty much set B/B. So if someone is claiming a b/b brown Sheltie, I want photos, a 3 generation pedigree, and a DNA parentage test.
 
ClantyreSheltie said:
But again, Shelties are pretty much set B/B. So if someone is claiming a b/b brown Sheltie, I want photos, a 3 generation pedigree, and a DNA parentage test.
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Yes, it would be fairly rare to get two B/bs in a mating pair. The bad thing is, if a dog has got that recessive, there's really no way to tell, and you could be spreading the darned thing around without knowing it.
 
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