excessive barking ultra sonic bark collar

[BarbV]

ok - first of all, I think we need to get our definitions straight.

@Caro - in my world vibrtating and static are the same....not the same as shock. I definitely don't believe in that. That being said, I still lean towards ultrasonic.

@Toffee's Mom - so if I say NO! to my dog and put him in a sit, stay....that's Punitive?

The collars are really just a way to get your dogs attention so that you CAN put them in a "pay attention to ME" mode. The vibration or sound means....Mom's here and I'm watching you, you devil! And then reward them for good behaviour when they respond.

I don't see what's wrong with that.

Bottom line is that there is no 100% guarantee on any technique. It takes trial and error to find what works for your dog. But as long as the technique to stop the bad behaviour is not painful to the dog, and as long as you reinforce it with "GOOD DOG" when they do what you want, what harm is that?

 

[Toffee's Mom]

@Toffee's Mom - so if I say NO! to my dog and put him in a sit, stay....that's Punitive?

The collars are really just a way to get your dogs attention so that you CAN put them in a "pay attention to ME" mode. The vibration or sound means....Mom's here and I'm watching you, you devil! And then reward them for good behaviour when they respond.

I don't see what's wrong with that.

Bottom line is that there is no 100% guarantee on any technique. It takes trial and error to find what works for your dog. But as long as the technique to stop the bad behaviour is not painful to the dog, and as long as you reinforce it with "GOOD DOG" when they do what you want, what harm is that?

I heartily and completely disagree, but I already made all my points I guess can't win them all, if you don't see the difference, that's okay, just don't ask again to explain what's wrong with it because I feel that I have.

 

[SheltieChe]

ok - first of all, I think we need to get our definitions straight.

@Caro - in my world vibrtating and static are the same....not the same as shock. I definitely don't believe in that. That being said, I still lean towards ultrasonic.

@Toffee's Mom - so if I say NO! to my dog and put him in a sit, stay....that's Punitive?

The collars are really just a way to get your dogs attention so that you CAN put them in a "pay attention to ME" mode. The vibration or sound means....Mom's here and I'm watching you, you devil! And then reward them for good behaviour when they respond.

I don't see what's wrong with that.

Bottom line is that there is no 100% guarantee on any technique. It takes trial and error to find what works for your dog. But as long as the technique to stop the bad behaviour is not painful to the dog, and as long as you reinforce it with "GOOD DOG" when they do what you want, what harm is that?

Whether device you use based on ultrasound or vibration or emitting some spray in the air- it should be recognized as punishment tool, regardless how mild that punishment might be in someone's eyes. Because there are no gray areas here. Since you are NOT rewarding your dog you are punishing him. Sure there will be anecdotal dogs that will find yelling at them or spraying them stimulating and arousing action but for majority of dogs it is punishment. I am not suggesting lets lead all positive life around here, but I am strong proponent of calling black black, accepting my choices, evaluating my dogs responses and living with consequences of my training decisions. Here is wonderful article from Dr Susan Friedman, while it has examples about parrot behaviors it could easily be translated to any animal.
http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/punishment.pdf

 

[Sharon]

Barking

Hope I don't start world war here but I went through this barking with Sting and did everything possible to try and correct it but he likes to bark and it goes with the breed.I had animal control on my doorstep 2 times form my neighbor complaining.I don't use shock, prong , or choke collars and I wasn't giving up my boy so I did the de bark.My neighbor is happy and I am happy.Alot of people are against it but when you have tried everything and yes I did train then maybe it is the next best thing.

 

[BarbV]

Whether device you use based on ultrasound or vibration or emitting some spray in the air- it should be recognized as punishment tool, regardless how mild that punishment might be in someone's eyes. Because there are no gray areas here. Since you are NOT rewarding your dog you are punishing him. Sure there will be anecdotal dogs that will find yelling at them or spraying them stimulating and arousing action but for majority of dogs it is punishment. I am not suggesting lets lead all positive life around here, but I am strong proponent of calling black black, accepting my choices, evaluating my dogs responses and living with consequences of my training decisions. Here is wonderful article from Dr Susan Friedman, while it has examples about parrot behaviors it could easily be translated to any animal.
http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/punishment.pdf

I think you are all missing the point that I'm trying to make.

If you ever verbally reprimand your dog, that's punishment. Are each of you saying that you NEVER reprimand your dog? SheltieChe, Toffee Mom? You never say No!?.

Come on! Be honest here!

The collars, devices and the Pet Corrector are just different ways of saying NO!

I think that's the first point that needs to be accepted. That yes, sometimes negative behaviour must be corrected.....and then redirected to positive behaviour.

And then find the most appropriate tools to both negate the bad behaviour and encourage the good. We may not agree on what those tools are, but I think perhaps we can agree that both positive and negative reinforcement are viable methods for training dogs.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I think you are all missing the point that I'm trying to make.

If you ever verbally reprimand your dog, that's punishment. Are each of you saying that you NEVER reprimand your dog? SheltieChe, Toffee Mom? You never say No!?.

Come on! Be honest here!

The collars, devices and the Pet Corrector are just different ways of saying NO!

I think that's the first point that needs to be accepted. That yes, sometimes negative behaviour must be corrected.....and then redirected to positive behaviour.

And then find the most appropriate tools to both negate the bad behaviour and encourage the good. We may not agree on what those tools are, but I think perhaps we can agree that both positive and negative reinforcement are viable methods for training dogs.

Missing the point indeed.

I will not agree nor accept negative enforcement, and that is what you are advertising with these tools! It's not about balance, because I will not do nor advocate that type of outdated training anymore.

Yes, I say NO, for example I say no when my dog's life is on the line OR if I loose my cool, since I too, am only human. Might surprise some people, I know
If everyone were to read all the links, you might find find that yes some of us DO use a negative marker with a dog to let them know if they did something 'wrong' and the withholding of the reward (which can be toys, praise, verbal, affection, etc) IS the correction, no need to say no or worse physically 'correct' on top of it.

 

[BarbV]

I'm sorry, but I'm truly not understanding your technique. Please walk us through a live scenario.

So let's give a scenario. You let the dogs outside for their morning run in the backyard. A dog and owner walk by. The other dog is loose and running up against your fence. Your dog goes ape and barks and chases up and down the fence line along with the loose dog.

How would YOU handle that?

There is no "danger" here - just two annoying dogs aggravating each other and making one heck of rackett!



p.s. My approach would be "Indy....No! and Come!" And if sometimes he doesn't hear me so would I consider another method of getting his attention (e.g. pet corrector or ultra sonic, you bet). And then when I have his attention and he returns, then big treats and praise.

 

[bi-blacks]

I totally agree with your approach Barb. It is a matter of getting their attention not punishing them. This very scenario happened TWICE this week at our house and I had our 3 dogs whose attention I had to get. Not any easy feat. I had to yell so loud for them to hear me and if I'd had an ultra sonic or pet corrector to use I surely would have. Once they heard me and responded to my come I rewarded them with a yummy treat. Absolutely nothing wrong with that method at all.

 

[SheltieChe]

I'm sorry, but I'm truly not understanding your technique. Please walk us through a live scenario.

So let's give a scenario. You let the dogs outside for their morning run in the backyard. A dog and owner walk by. The other dog is loose and running up against your fence. Your dog goes ape and barks and chases up and down the fence line along with the loose dog.

How would YOU handle that?

There is no "danger" here - just two annoying dogs aggravating each other and making one heck of rackett!



p.s. My approach would be "Indy....No! and Come!" And if sometimes he doesn't hear me so would I consider another method of getting his attention (e.g. pet corrector or ultra sonic, you bet). And then when I have his attention and he returns, then big treats and praise.

My approach would be following.
My dog will not be outside without me. First thing when this happens I will make sure I do not have this habit building because I REALLY REALLY do not like fence fighting of any kind. So off we go trying to figure out how to manipulate my environment. There will be put tarp on my side of the fence,or rebuild the fence so there is not visual stimulation. As a gardener I will put beds on both sides- making something spikey and non inviting on outside and break down pattern of running fence on inside.
Second I will be playing with my dogs outside and make sure they are getting plenty of training and running. I will take them for walks and runs outside of the yard just because I think mentally and physically tired dogs are really good dogs
Third I really do not mind when my dogs warn me that someone out there I just do not like when fence fight running happens. So I have my dogs trained to bark twice to let me know what happened and then run to me for a treat. By the time we done playing/ doing tricks and I send them back to the fence, whatever was there is gone.
Screaming at the dog trying to get their attention is reinforcing the very behavior I do not want. Using sound/vibrating/ spray emitting collars is punishment. Yes, we can logic ourselves into anything we want to believe and we can tell ourselves that using such collars is JUST an attention getter...it does not change the fact.
If you say " I used that collar once and my dog did not run to the fence for a week" I MIGHT consider that your punishment is successful and it is useful for you to do it but it is slippery road. I understand that not everyone is willing to do what I will do. As a society we are all too quick to pull out that water spray bottle when our dog barks...

 

[Sharon]

Collars

My approach would be following.
My dog will not be outside without me. First thing when this happens I will make sure I do not have this habit building because I REALLY REALLY do not like fence fighting of any kind. So off we go trying to figure out how to manipulate my environment. There will be put tarp on my side of the fence,or rebuild the fence so there is not visual stimulation. As a gardener I will put beds on both sides- making something spikey and non inviting on outside and break down pattern of running fence on inside.
Second I will be playing with my dogs outside and make sure they are getting plenty of training and running. I will take them for walks and runs outside of the yard just because I think mentally and physically tired dogs are really good dogs
Third I really do not mind when my dogs warn me that someone out there I just do not like when fence fight running happens. So I have my dogs trained to bark twice to let me know what happened and then run to me for a treat. By the time we done playing/ doing tricks and I send them back to the fence, whatever was there is gone.
Screaming at the dog trying to get their attention is reinforcing the very behavior I do not want. Using sound/vibrating/ spray emitting collars is punishment. Yes, we can logic ourselves into anything we want to believe and we can tell ourselves that using such collars is JUST an attention getter...it does not change the fact.
If you say " I used that collar once and my dog did not run to the fence for a week" I MIGHT consider that your punishment is successful and it is useful for you to do it but it is slippery road. I understand that not everyone is willing to do what I will do. As a society we are all too quick to pull out that water spray bottle when our dog barks...

I have to agree with sheltieche.Nicely said!!!