Chris
Premium Member
We're on the floor here! That is just the funniest thing I've read on the Forum in a looooong time!
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We're on the floor here! That is just the funniest thing I've read on the Forum in a looooong time!
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
We're on the floor here! That is just the funniest thing I've read on the Forum in a looooong time!
It always works for me! Oooo[s! was that my inside voice?
missjenneygirl
Forums Enthusiast
Narmowen, you seem to be carrying on your Grandmother and Mothers' breeding program. Please take this opportunity to give your program a brag by telling us who were the Champions that were bred by your kennel. Are they dogs we would know? Also, post some pictures and tell us the highlights of your years in dogs, ie. exciting wins, judges you admire. You seem very stong in your program, so sing your praises. Have you promoted your stud dogs? What are their accomplishments? I know in the past I have taken the opportunity to highlight my dogs, and I appreciate all the great comments, so go for it!
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
I agree that it doesn't mean someone is a BYB or bad breeder just because they use their own males as well.
What is the point in owning a quality male who you don't use with your own females? To me, that shows a lack of confidence in the quality of male you have, and defeats the purpose of having a male of your own. If you're only going to breed your bitches to outside males, why own a male in the first place?
Yes, I do take my girls to outside males, but when the males I have can give me the traits I'm looking for, I use them as well. I think I chose males who suit my breeding program well.
I'm not saying for one to breed their females strictly to their own male simply because it's convenient... only that most of us I would think have males that we think represent what we are breeding for, and possess traits we desire in out programs, and should be able to be used without question to better our breeding programs.
What is the point in owning a quality male who you don't use with your own females? To me, that shows a lack of confidence in the quality of male you have, and defeats the purpose of having a male of your own. If you're only going to breed your bitches to outside males, why own a male in the first place?
Yes, I do take my girls to outside males, but when the males I have can give me the traits I'm looking for, I use them as well. I think I chose males who suit my breeding program well.
I'm not saying for one to breed their females strictly to their own male simply because it's convenient... only that most of us I would think have males that we think represent what we are breeding for, and possess traits we desire in out programs, and should be able to be used without question to better our breeding programs.
missjenneygirl
Forums Enthusiast
A well used stud dog is the income for the kennel. Not puppies. A litter is an unknown. Though puppies are the future of your line, and are the advertising for a program that breeds quality, healthy, good temperment dogs. As you all know, a litter can cost you money if you pay a stud, ship, c-section, and only have 2 pups. A stud dog's cost against what he brings in is nominal. If he breeds only twice a month, that's $1500.00 into the operation. Megan's Mark had 44 breedings in his stud career, from age 2-9.
An ideal stud dog is a dog you bred, other people admire, and use. It is very exciting to have a class of puppies and several of them are by your dog. How absolutely exciting was it for Karen Henley of Shelhaven to have 3 class winners at the 2007 ASSA National Futurity. There are only 6 classes total, and 50% of the puppies in the ring going for Best in Futurity were by her dog. With an entry of over 150 puppies. All 3 class winners were by just one of her stud dogs, AM/CA CH Shelhaven Alaris.
I agree, the ideal is to use your stud dog, and we do. But because we keep our numbers so small, that means everyone is tightly related. It then gets tricky, and you find you back yourself into a corner, and have to go outside, or risk stamping into your line something that maybe you don't need more of.
An ideal stud dog is a dog you bred, other people admire, and use. It is very exciting to have a class of puppies and several of them are by your dog. How absolutely exciting was it for Karen Henley of Shelhaven to have 3 class winners at the 2007 ASSA National Futurity. There are only 6 classes total, and 50% of the puppies in the ring going for Best in Futurity were by her dog. With an entry of over 150 puppies. All 3 class winners were by just one of her stud dogs, AM/CA CH Shelhaven Alaris.
I agree, the ideal is to use your stud dog, and we do. But because we keep our numbers so small, that means everyone is tightly related. It then gets tricky, and you find you back yourself into a corner, and have to go outside, or risk stamping into your line something that maybe you don't need more of.
SheepOfBlue
Premium Member
As a non-breeder I think this thread is a great illustration that there is no set rules for good. But there is warning flags that shouldn't be ignored. I have read things that would have set me off but also read some good reasons why they are not necessarily bad. For instance Sca has some inbreeding and so far his appearance and health have been great. He had a minor doggy cold that worried me as he was young and I heard rumors of Parvo after the shots began, otherwise I would have waited and he would have been fine. He is likely going to be slightly oversized though his mom was on the small size (I think Dad was mid range)
So I guess in short pay attention to red flags but flags don't necessarily indicate a bad breeder. Consider it profiling of breeders
double check when you see a flag but don't automatically rule them out.
So I guess in short pay attention to red flags but flags don't necessarily indicate a bad breeder. Consider it profiling of breeders
double check when you see a flag but don't automatically rule them out.Honestly, I just don't like discussing my dogs like that.
I don't show in the States, and haven't in several years. Five champions owned by my kennel (mother, grandmother and me). Annie, Durango, Clark, Taco and Jock. All canadian champions. Clark was AKC ptd. Taco and Jock's mother (littermates) was AKC ptd. Their sire was Am Ch B'Field the Natural. Annie's sire was an Am Ch, as was Kathy (Durango and Annie's dam).
Here's an incomplete list of Birdsong dogs:
http://pedigreelines.com/search?s=birdsong&x=0&y=0&start=0
Murphy Brown went on to produce her owner an Am Ch.
Molly (not listed on the site) was taken to Canada as a puppy, where a large kennel offered me a substantial amount of money for her, which I turned down. She and Harry Potter produced my youngest, Luke, who while is intact, isn't a stud.
Harry could easily have been a Can Ch, and an Am Ch if I would have had the money to show him or pay someone to show him. Which I don't, since grad school (and undergrad school) sucks money up like nothing else.
I put Jock's Can Ch on him in about a year, shown in the States for over 4 and never got anything above a reserve winners dog, thanks to the prof. handlers in my area. I've discussed them before. Since I don't believe in sending out/paying for someone to show my dogs for me, him, Luke and Harry are all unpointed in the US.
I put all of Jock's points on him, and completed his Can Ch. We took several BOB's, and 2 group placements, one third and a fourth. Shown against some impressive Shelties, which we beat. I also put Annie's first 2 Can. points on her.
The most exciting wins were the group placements. No judges that I admire, since I can't think of any right offhand.
A BYB is somebody who is in it only for money. So that would make them bad.
That's what makes them a BYB.missjenneygirl
Forums Enthusiast
There are many clues to determine if someone is a backyard breeder, or only breeding for the income. Ask the questions that are important to you, keep your eyes open, and go with your gut feeling. For me the number one thing, first clue is selling puppies in the newspaper classified, craigslist, or online.
What would be some other clues that you would look for?
What would be some other clues that you would look for?
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
No testing, doesn't show their dogs in any venue, no champions in the pedigree for several generations, dogs being bred with no regard for the standard, sells all puppies on full registration. Those are all big ones for me. Oh yeah, there are also those breeders selling pups with the infamous CKC papers.
I can't say, when things are being done right, that there's money actually *made* in breeding dogs. I think it really is a labor of love.
Stud fees, testing, showing, vet care, food, and general care all outweigh what any litter brings back in. When a pup I've bred sells, I don't go 'well, that just bought me a new living room suite'. It's more along the lines of 'oh, I've got 3 shows coming up that need entry fees paid, and this dog needs its' hips done, and I've got to buy dog food', etc.... It all pretty well goes right back into the dogs. That's also what I am told by most of my friends who are breeders. They aren't getting rich breeding pups... they're barely breaking even, if at all, after everything that goes into doing things correctly.
I can't say, when things are being done right, that there's money actually *made* in breeding dogs. I think it really is a labor of love.
Stud fees, testing, showing, vet care, food, and general care all outweigh what any litter brings back in. When a pup I've bred sells, I don't go 'well, that just bought me a new living room suite'. It's more along the lines of 'oh, I've got 3 shows coming up that need entry fees paid, and this dog needs its' hips done, and I've got to buy dog food', etc.... It all pretty well goes right back into the dogs. That's also what I am told by most of my friends who are breeders. They aren't getting rich breeding pups... they're barely breaking even, if at all, after everything that goes into doing things correctly.
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