On Early Takeoffs

very interesting- it's been mentioned that Cran might have ets.....
but apparently most dogs with it will try to jump even if there's no bar on the jump- at the seminar this summer, he could tell that there was no bar and ran right through the uprights.
he has jumped significantly higher than he has needed on quite a few jumps.
and then there's the running past/around the jumps- I think he has striding/collection issues............
and we're still working on that................
 
I would love to see at least basic rads and evaluations from his PT- chiro vet. There is something structurally wrong with dog in that video.
 
Sealtainn said:
It was a nice article, but I didn't read anything that hasn't already been written already by others like LM.
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Didn't mean to mislead. This article is interesting, and I like Rosanne's "lay men's terms"--but no, she has not introduced a new theory or determined the true cause, or tested a hypothesis, etc.

She has only reiterated what others have said which is bringing up the fact that this is happening and shouldn't be ignored.
 
Which facts should not be ignored?
That not all dogs are born natural jumpers and we do not know what to do with it? Check out this link. There is no ANY info why those dogs jump the way they jump and how they arrived to it.
http://live.eukanuba.com/?tags=video-akc-agility-invitational-10-12-and-16-inch
and for those who do not have an 1hr 45 minutes to watch it, there is cute sheltie at 5 minute and appr 22 minute jumping:smile2:
SG in interview with BDA states to question regarding most advances to be made in future agility training that good jumping programs will have to be developed. Even LM states now that she had/ along with everyone else/ very little knowledge regarding collection and extension training in dogs when she set out writing her DJS book in 2005, all jumping knowledge- training came from modeling/ transferring equestrian models... hello... they are another species:biggrin2:
Currently we have not much to go on. Our canine rehab is in its infancy, whatever knowledge we supply regarding training canine athletes comes from human science, there is no science behind training athlete dog yet. So we just transfer human exercise science that dynamic stretches are good for warm up and static stretches do nothing for performance but help to prevent injuries, and translate leg kicks and squats into paw movement- there is no canine research to fund it. Another species again....:biggrin2:
It is still uncommon to do any physical evaluations on the dog unless dog already presents with problems like dropped bars, nobody takes dog for rehab just because some other dog body slammed into yours during play and your dog was ¨off¨ for short time...
And then 6 months later after dog already tried to compensate for play injury and finally started showing signs of chronic injury at agility, handler goes into fit ¨my dog needs jumping program¨ and starts setting up jumping grids and then goes all mental at trials expecting dog to fail.
And we all know how much our handling can affect dog jumping style. And we learn more every day.
I do not see how labeling dog with ETS or anything else is helpful at the current level of science. Who benefits?
 
SheltieChe said:
And we all know how much our handling can affect dog jumping style. And we learn more every day.
I do not see how labeling dog with ETS or anything else is helpful at the current level of science. Who benefits?
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Sometimes a label can do more harm than good.
Sometimes such a "diagnosis" after ruling out other possibilities such as handling can help by recognizing certain limitations that may need to be considered when handling, or after one or more dropped bars.

While there wasn't anything new in the article, it does at least continue to serve to educate the general agility community and hopefully within that community trainers.
All too often the blame for dropped bars/jump crashes is placed on the handler - by onlookers but also by trainers who through their misunderstanding may contribute to worsening of the problem.
Everyone does not share the same opinion or have the same experience.
An inexperienced handler with an affected dog that takes classes with a trainer that is either unaware of the issue or refuses to acknowledge it can do more harm than good by forcing an affected dog to perform certain exercises all the time as it loses any confidence it may have had to start with.

So unfortunately if attributing such a label on a dog is considered negative then as the article basically says, stop using the label yourself if it is your own dog, and instead simply describe the issue if it needs to be addressed.
Who benefits is the wider agility community & if more trainers become more educated themselves then anyone who takes classes with said trainers that have a dog that develops such issues.

i.e. instead of the trainer blaming the handler, the trainer needs a reset so more appropriate training techniques can be used rather than the inappropriate ones that only serve to worsen the situation.
 
Yes, for now I feel this labeling as well as posting anectodal evidence as this article presents does more harm than good.
Instead of really looking into possible causes, any person whose dog just crashed a spread starts asking "Do we have ETS?"
Granted Strafe is not a Freeze and is powerful good jumper, but Roseanne is not the same handler either, if you watch that youtube clip and what she does now is completely different, so we have different dogs but also different handlers, how can we compare apples and oranges?
There is great article at OMD site regarding weave entry by Jaako, re seeing course from dog's view, how they set up agility course and dogs repeatedly missed weave entry, only to realize that dog have different spatial awareness and that dogs were seeing pillar of staircase that was some distance away but aligned with their vision as first weave entry.
Here is what Jaako says "So at OneMind Dogs, we teach handlers to remember that the dogs never do things wrong just for fun. They have a reason – and we need to see their actions also from their point of view, not just a human’s."
Below is current definition of ETS, mind you ONLY group 5 is considered to be valid ETS candidates.
1. Dogs who take off early/stutter but are 'cured' with training or handling
2. Dogs who stutter due to injury, but jumping resolves when injury does
3. Dogs who take off early/stutter, but do not significantly improve/are 'cured' by training and have an abnormal CERF.
4. Dogs who take off early/stutter, but do not significantly improve/are 'cured' by training and have an abnormal retinoscopy.
and the key group:
5. Dogs who take off early/stutter, but do not significantly improve/are 'cured' by training and have a normal CERF and retinoscopy.
The difference between group 1 and group 5 is training program.
Do we have a reliable dog retraining jumping program that has some valid numbers/ estimates/ quantative evaluations on proven to be effective?
 
Isn't ETS in simple terms, bad eyesight?

It is weird to me all this research and jibber jabber about it when I thought it was just that some dogs have bad eyesight that leads to poor depth perception.

Am I missing something?
 
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