On Early Takeoffs

[danisgoat]

Sadly, yes, I have seen it quite a bit up here. It seems to be cropping up in certain lines, but there is only speculation about that.

My trainer even has a GREAT dog that she runs that has ETS, but it is an issue that is mild and manageable.

So that is probably our difference in opinion. We just don't see it. My trainer also has only seen it once in a BC, never a Sheltie.

 

[HopeShelties]

It does tend to show up in certain lines. Being a breeder, I avoid those particular lines like the plague. It's not something I want to bring in.
I don't think ETS is always an eye problem, but certainly is a lot of the time.
I have seen it created by injury, and out of fear also. I know of a dog who was a nice jumper until going to a few places on really slick turf for a couple of trials back to back and did a lot of sliding and falling. The dogs way of compensating seems to be jumping earlier. Now on turf that is what she does, but not on dirt.

 

[danisgoat]

I don't think ETS is always an eye problem, but certainly is a lot of the time.

I have seen it created by injury, and out of fear also. I know of a dog who was a nice jumper until going to a few places on really slick turf for a couple of trials back to back and did a lot of sliding and falling. The dogs way of compensating seems to be jumping earlier. Now on turf that is what she does, but not on dirt.

Yes, I agree. This is why labeling ETS, and then just disregarding the line is not using your best judgement.

It could be eyes
It could be fear
It could be injury
It could be structure
etc.

I firmly believe that people should focus on the individual dog and the reasoning, rather than say, "oh, that dog has ETS. The entire line is bad." It would be much more beneficial to say, that line has poor eyesight, that dog has bad structure, etc..

Then, you are calling an actual hereditary problem, versus other factors.

Calling out a line for "ETS" that is just poor and misleading judgement in my opinion.

But, people who believe in grouping together ETS problems and saying that it is from a line, without considering other factors, might be missing out on an amazing dog. Their choice!

I find it terrible that one dog that was highly publicized as having ETS was 10 years old when ETS started to show up. This fact was not made public, yet the dog was smeared over magazines, online articles, and if I remember correctly, on a thread on this forum. Although, no one cared to really look into it further and realize that the dog had an amazing agility career, and maybe at 10, she had different variables going on with her causing the ETS. People rather chose to throw stones. Again, I say, their choice, and their loss.

 

[danisgoat]

Going through and doing a search on the forum regarding ETS, I see that you have brought this up several times, Ashley. It obviously bothers you a lot and is a big concern of yours.

My best advice for you, for your next dog stay away from any lines that have had a dog with "ETS." Then, you don't have to worry For breeders who are concerned, then don't breed to those lines.

I personally don't buy into it, and if my dog started showing signs of ETS at age 10, I would probably just stop competing. They are my pets first and foremost. They are family members to me. But that is just IMHO. I would feel blessed that my dog was able to perform for that long. I also own two dogs from a line where people have claimed has "ETS." They are the best dogs I have ever owned in my 40 years of life. They are awesome family dogs, travel anywhere, LOVE people, get along with all other dogs, are consistent fast competitors, are easily trained by my kids, have both obedience and rally titles in addition to agility, and are all around amazing family dogs. So, I would go back to their breeder in a heartbeat. I feel that I would be stupid not to.

 

[corbinam]

Going through and doing a search on the forum regarding ETS, I see that you have brought this up several times, Ashley. It obviously bothers you a lot and is a big concern of yours.

My best advice for you, for your next dog stay away from any lines that have had a dog with "ETS." Then, you don't have to worry For breeders who are concerned, then don't breed to those lines.

I personally don't buy into it, and if my dog started showing signs of ETS at age 10, I would probably just stop competing. They are my pets first and foremost. They are family members to me. But that is just IMHO. I would feel blessed that my dog was able to perform for that long. I also own two dogs from a line where people have claimed has "ETS." They are the best dogs I have ever owned in my 40 years of life. They are awesome family dogs, travel anywhere, LOVE people, get along with all other dogs, are consistent fast competitors, are easily trained by my kids, have both obedience and rally titles in addition to agility, and are all around amazing family dogs. So, I would go back to their breeder in a heartbeat. I feel that I would be stupid not to.

I'm not sure where this argument got personal, and I apologize if somehow that was my fault.

I am not "really bothered" by ETS, and I didn't post the link to Rosanne's blog for my own personal gain. I posted it because I found it interesting. Yes, where I am ETS is more common. More well-known handlers address it, and therefore when I see an interesting post, I share it. Am I saying it's the best most factual earth-shatteringly astute post? No, but it's interesting and it's something that I think the forum might find interesting. If you're not interested in it, then it doesn't need to be read.

I understand where you're coming from that it's frustrating to have a breeder labeled a certain way. You're 100% right that many of the dogs affected (or just in a line that has been labeled "affected") are AMAZING agility dogs, and even more wonderful pets. As I said, my trainer has a dog with ETS and the dog is absolutely outstanding. She will be traveling abroad to compete on the world team. But knowing the dog has ETS has made her a better handler--she knows how to deal with the issue.

ETS is not a death sentence, and it isn't a dirty word. I think people should be aware, filter how they will, and consider it as much or as little as they'd like.

 

[danisgoat]

I'm not sure where this argument got personal, and I apologize if somehow that was my fault.

This isn't an argument. It is a discussion. I am sorry that you took it as an argument.

Where I am coming from:
You have started threads in the past saying that you are researching ETS because you want to start thinking about your 3rd dog. Your thread about your 3rd dog was not about any other issues that you were concerned with, other than ETS.

That is where I am coming from in my latest posts. Some things are more important than others to some. This is obviously a concerning issue for you, as you see it in your trainers dog and this is not the first time you have brought it up.

I was just simply saying, that you would probably want to stay away from any line that had a dog labeled as "ETS" in the search for your 3rd dog.

Sorry to come off as argumentative. History has it, that ETS threads end up bashing my dog's line. My feathers get ruffled.

 

[corbinam]

Sorry to come off as argumentative. History has it, that ETS threads end up bashing my dog's line. My feathers get ruffled.

I understand. I did not want to come across as bashing your dogs' line. I mentioned it in a past thread and have learned much since then.

You're right that there is a lot more information needed on this subject, and we should be very careful with that label.

Your dogs are clearly wonderful dogs, devoted friends to the members of your family and nice working dogs. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

 

[Sharon]

Ets

Just curiuos has anyone seen the videos on youtube of dogs wearing lenses for ETS?marq Cheek has one on there of one of his dogs with and without the lenses.

 

[danisgoat]

Thanks Ashley.

My daughter did a presentation on ETS for 4-H. Basically, the topic was a hard one because defining ETS is broad and difficult. During the research on ETS, we came across one video of a sheltie working with and without corrective lenses. They were really interesting. The change was noticeable.

I thought that was really cool. It was a great way for the dog and the handler to have a tool to continue doing what they love together.

 

[Sealtainn]

Just curiuos has anyone seen the videos on youtube of dogs wearing lenses for ETS?marq Cheek has one on there of one of his dogs with and without the lenses.

Yes, I've seen the videos & watched them compete in person. His dog would not be classified as ETS in that a known defect was identified. i.e. having poor eyesight/depth perception due to a diagnosed issue - one that in fact can be partially addressed via contacts.

That video gets mentioned a lot because it is out there but if you actually talk to him he will tell you that it is such a hassle to put the contacts on & off that most of the time he does not use them.


Unfortunately a lot of misinformation goes around on ETS, some in this thread included.

If you are an observer of dogs & see early take-offs you cannot simply assume ETS.
I've witnessed quite a few, mostly shelties, some bc's. If you follow-up most of these dogs have known underlying reasons for the take-offs that can be explained.
Those dogs do not meet the definition of a classic ETS dog.

In fact, the way ETS has been defined (and redefined), in some ways contributes to the confusion & controversy. Before being "labelled" ETS a dog needs to be evaluated & tested.
Should the dog "pass" these specific tests it may be considered as exhibiting the symptoms of ETS. However, if the owner is persistent and goes even further than what is considered the current evaluation which then identifies an issue that could explain the ETS symptoms then that dog which had previously been labeled as an ETS dog is instantly no longer considered an ETS dog & the label no longer applies.
This label or no label doesn't change the facts that the dog has issues that can be observed.

Increasing awareness does just that, but it is not likely to change strongly held positions that some hold that it is real or not, or it can be cured, or managed, or whatever.
I won't go down that path here.

But the point I will make, is that if you have a dog that does exhibit the symptoms of ETS, then the current recommendations for evaluation (which is not limited to testing the vision, but does also include evaluation of structure or if there is any injury) should be followed through prior to trying to "fix" the dog or the handlers handling.

IMO, the worst thing possible is for a trainer that is not open-minded enough, or worse still adamantly refuses to accept the possibility of ETS, to blame the handler &/or blame the dog, and set up jump exercises that worsens the problem by reducing the dogs confidence.


Identify the source(s) of the problems before assuming you know the solution. For some causes there is no solution & it is best not to exacerbate the problems by misguided intentions or ignorance.


The down-side of increasing awareness of ETS is that you do find dogs being described as ETS dogs without qualification & doing so it lessens the credibility of those that do fit into the current definition.