Sheltie challanging dominance

[OntarioSheltie]

IMHO sometimes you have to use both positive and corrective training. Sometimes even the most sensitive of breeds, Shelties/Golden Retrievers are capable of behaving very inappropriately and it's our job as responsible parents to correct it..

Yeah, that's my philosophy too. I personally try to keep toward positive training, but resort to corrections when positive training isn't getting the results I want.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

I have a dog who had to be pinned. He learned *very* quickly what behavior got him there, and very quickly stopped it. I would just put him on his side until he relaxed, then he could get back up. Dogs don't like to be nagged, they need their rules and limits set very clearly. In this case, he was picking on another dog pretty hard core, I had blood a couple of times.

Nothing In Life Is Free is a good program to start with. It will give you the beginnings of structure. I would crate this girl every time you leave the house. Again, structure. Obedience classes never hurt.

So here is a maybe silly question, but I see it a lot. When you want her off the sofa, is the word "down" or "off"? When you want her to lay on her belly on the floor, is the word "down?" Is it possible she is confused? I teach "move your butt" to get them off the furniture, and "lie down" for laying on the floor. Sometimes if there are multiple people in the house, they all use different commands and the dog is like "what?"

I would say just don't take her crap. She is the equivalent of a teenager who is testing your limits. The more she gets away with, the more she will challenge, just like teenage humans. When you tell her "off" and she doesn't, grab her little collar and help her. Don't give her a second command, and don't let her get away with it.

 

[HopeShelties]

Get her to an obedience class.
Running out of the car without you inviting her? Have you taught her no dog? Chances are, she doesn't understand this is not an appropriate behavior. Yes, it is dangerous... very dangerous, but unless you've taught her otherwise, she doesn't know that.
I also suggest not leaving her loose when you're not home. She isn't peeing on the floor to be disobedient. Just crate her when you're not around. Problem solved.

 

[take4roll10]

The peeing is behavioral, she can hold her pee when she is in the crate, and when I'm with her she gives me cues when she needs to go out, its when she is left alone and her movement to me is blocked.

It may very well be behavioral. However, when my Bailey had a UTI, she never peed in her crate and always told me when she had to go out too. Of course, the only one that knows your dog is you, so I'm sure you will use your best judgment.

 

[Arby0617]

I would definitely stop pinning her down right away. Be consistent with your training, be very careful in your corrections and your timing... Sometimes using punitive and treat reward training at the same time can lead to complete frustration and confusion, imo

I agree with this observation. It seems that if the reward is a treat, then the punishment would be no treat, wouldn't it? I'm a huge believer in withholding attention in resposne to rude behavior, whether it's dogs or people.

 

[Strider]

I agree with this observation. It seems that if the reward is a treat, then the punishment would be no treat, wouldn't it? I'm a huge believer in withholding attention in resposne to rude behavior, whether it's dogs or people.

That's one of the concerns with corrective training, any attention is better than no attention so the animal learns that by acting out, mommy/daddy is going to come wrestle with them.. Yay, we just trained them to act out!

Not meaning to derail this thread and definately don't want this to be a bash on what you've been doing. I'm not in your shoes nor do I see all the behavior. We can only give what advice we have available with the info we are given and most if not all is anecdotal(sp) at best.

For me, I have seen nothing but success stories with positive reinforcement training. the NILIF training sounds great and might be worth a shot for you as well. If you have been to local experts and they are telling you something, then they will have more to work on than what we have as we only have what you post, they are able to see the behavior. If the trainer/expert wasn't able to help, seek others out. Get into an obedeince class.

 

[Hazel]

I do keep her kenneled when I'm out of the house, and she loves her kennel will go in it to eat treats keeps her toys in there. Its stuff like me going to the bathroom or having a shower or taking a undisturbed nap, I will useally find a pee spot when I come out.

For commands I'm using lay down for the trick and off for sofa.
I started doing the door doesn't open, and she doesn't get to move till I say so when walking her, see how that goes.

I don't know I just tried alot of different ways with her and the reward methid doesn't really work for her.

 

[Justicemom]

Let me start by saying I use a balance training approach in training. I do use corrections uh-uh and collar pops in training but never in the learning stage and then only when I am sure the dog understands what is asked of it. By that time the dog knows what to do so rarely needs a correction. I have only pinned one of my dogs once and that was when she flew at my face and tried to bite me in the cheek, even then is was self defense. I have never found another situation which required that harsh of a correction even with my hard headed Terrier mix.. I like dominant dogs and of my all dogs have been on the dominant side. Jo and Jazz(JRT mix) were very dominant. Diva the least.

That being said, I not sure you have a dominance problem more than you have an obedience problem.

First the couch, she gets off the couch sometimes but not others. If she doesn't you stare her down. This means nothing to the dog. She may know what you want, she may not. When my dog Diva doesn't off when I tell her, I don't assume that it is because she is challenging me, I believe it is because she doesn't fully understand because she is 16 months old. I don't repeat myself, I don't stare at her(because she'll think I'm crazy). I remove her from the couch by taking her by the collar and helping her to the ground, lifting her off the couch or go to sit on her(believe me she moves). When her feet touch the ground, I praise her with "good off" If she is really challenging you by growling or snapping, tip the couch and slip her off. But get her off the couch with one command. Then attach a long line to her in the house so you can remove her from unwanted areas more easily.

The messing on the floor and barking when you leave sounds like some seperation anxeity not challenageing your authority. If crating her solves it great.

Not listening when off lead is a total obedience thing. She knows when she is off leash, she is free to do as she pleases. She was taught this by being allowed freedom before she was really ready. If she is pinned down when she finally comes, I am not suprised she doesn't come back. Sorry but if a dog is running amuck and finally makes a move at coming back to you even if it one step back to you, she should be praised for finally coming. Correcting a dog at that point is correcting it for coming not running away and not listening. Put your dog a long line 15-20 let her learn to have some freedom but with you still having control if she doesn't listen and then you can reel her in(this is the correction). Next step dragging the long line, step on it and reel her in. When she is 100% on her recall on a drag long line for sometime thats when she can be totally off lead.

Jumping out of the car-again obedience not challenging. My dogs all tried this as puppies. They were excited and didn't know better. Crate her in the car so you have better control and teach her to wait to exit the car with a release command.

Like others have said a good obedience class will help with a lot of your issues. Hopefully someone can suggest someone in your area.

 

[JessicaR]

I totaly agree with Dr. Shelli.

It definitly sounds like an obedience problem to me, with a little bit of anxiety.
There are 2 cardnel rules to dog training
1 Never Ever punish a dog for coming to you, no matter how long it took them to come to you.
2 never let a dog off leash that you dont trust to listen to you 100%.

I recently got a reminder in the 2nd rule a couple of weeks ago I was working with Dusty, who is 15 months old, on some off leash recalls at my daughters school. I called him to me and he decided to visit the kids instead so back on the leash he went until I feel I can trust him! It was my fault I shouldnt of pushed it with such a big distraction.

I reccommend obedience classes.

Also I wanted to add one of the reasons I got shelties is because they are considered a submissive breed, not dominate! Oh I am sure there are exceptions to the norm, but most shelties are not dominate.

 

[Caro]

It sounds like you are dealing with a normal adolescent pup. I agree with Shelli, these are issues that can be dealt with obedience training, which is always good to help a dog get through a difficult adolescence. If you do a search you will find quite a lot of threads on problem adolescent dogs - you arent alone.

Adolescent dogs dont have great restraint so keep her on the lead, until you get some reliability (mine are off lead almost all the time but went back on lead during their teens). I would also suggest keeping her on lead in the car so you can direct her and keeping a short lead on around home.

Border Collies, Kelpies and Heelers tend to be the dominant herding breeds not shelties. One of the problems with using harsh techniques on shelties is they can easily grow into a very timid and shy dog.

Could her piddling be exciteable piddling - it is really common. Take note of when she piddles, esp if its times she is excited to see you, and try to be calm, even ignore her for a while until she calms down. Most dogs grow out of exciteable piddling.

I find 'time out' is very effective for shelties - as your attention is usually the most important resource for them.

I posted this on a previous thread - it comes from a vet and I think they are great words to help get through adolescence.
Be patient with your dog. Don’t interpret your dog’s error as deliberate defiance. The dog needs to ask questions, and you will be wisest to answer those questions kindly as well as consistently. The dog won’t be any better trained because you get mad in the process.

As a matter of fact, training done in a playful tone is more effective than getting mad, because this is the most receptive state of mind for learning—and that goes for your brain as well as the dog’s! Have fun when training, and make it fun for the dog, too. Hold the line on the limits of behavior because the dog needs this from you. But don’t fault the dog for having questions. That’s the nature of an adolescent.

Most people don’t understand dog adolescence. Sadly, it’s a prime time for people to give up on their dogs. You can avoid this terrible loss by realizing what your dog experiences during this time, and being there to help your dog through it. Both of you can come out on the other side of adolescence with an incredible bond and knowledge that will bless the rest of your lives.