Sheltie Thinks He Is Dominant and Aggression Towards Me During Discipline

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521collective

Forums Regular
Hello! I have a sweet sheltie boy who is about 8 months old. We are having a problem with digging and also begging, and excited peeing. My husband can talk to him in a low harsh voice and hold him so that the pup looks him in the eye when he is in trouble. Oliver is receptive and puts his ears back, then goes and lays down as to say he is sorry. When I do this, he wants to eat me! He tries to bite, and he growls and barks. I am home all the time and have been for his entire life. He feels as though he is dominant to me, and this is dangerous in my opinion. How do I establish dominance with him? Nothing is working! Help please!:(
 
I would try to bite you too. I'm not sure what the message is that is going to the dog with the whole staring thing. My dogs would be confused.

I'm sure someone who is better versed in training can explain it better, but the whole "dominance" thing is really outdated. "Dominance" to me means "access to good stuff". It has nothing to do with intimidation or staring contests or making the dog feel bad. I've never had to do that with any of my dogs, and certainly, had I done that with the over the top rescues I've had in, I would have been chewed up.

I control the food, and I control the yard, and I control all the fun chews, and I control where they go, which makes me the "boss" (if you need to put a word on it). It has nothing to do with whether I have intimidated my dogs or not. If the dogs get fractious and bitey with each other, I have the offending one sit until they calm down.

I do have an alpha bitch in the house, but she has never lifted a lip to any other dog. If she wants the sofa, or the rawhide, the other dogs either give it up, or take it to another room in hopes that she will forget they have it. But when I tell her to "move your ***" off the sofa, she does.

So "dominance" is not about physical manipulation or any of that Cesar Milan crap, it's about who is actually in control. And I think a lot of that comes with basic training. My dogs ALL know that I dispense food for doing good things when I ask them to. That's a dominant behavior from me, and since they like food, they happily work. I think that is more effective than physical altercation.
 
It sounds like your boy is already more in control of you that you are of him. It's more a matter of trust than authority. If your puppy (and he still is very much a puppy at 8 months) trusts you, then he will not only be willing but have a strong desire to please you. From that point on it's simply teaching him what the signs are for when you are and aren't happy with his behavior.

Discipline = education, not punishment. If you are confrontational every time he does something you don't want him to, that's going to be his approach for everything.

Here are a few do's and don'ts.

Do praise and reward good behavior.
Do not physically punish bad behavior. It teaches fear and aggression.

Do play with him more at games for which he already knows the rules. Fetch, catch, tug of war ... something that is physically active and mentally stimulating. A bored dog is a bucket of trouble.

Do not expect him to change over night. It's going to take some work. All those "Teach a dog to behave TV shows" are not based in reality, no matter what they claim, just like you can't make a fortune from working at home or lose 20 pound by taking a pill.

Do keep a regular schedule so he knows what to expect and when. This includes feeding, play, sleep/rest and training.
Do not try to train him when he's misbehaving. He's got no concentration when he's worked up. Calm him down by stopping any activity and speaking softly but firmly to him. And do not back down and don't leave him alone. Stand firm and stoic.

Do all this without your husband's intervention so your dog gets the idea that you are in control and that you get the confidence to be in control.
 
521collective said:
Hello! I have a sweet sheltie boy who is about 8 months old. We are having a problem with digging and also begging, and excited peeing. My husband can talk to him in a low harsh voice and hold him so that the pup looks him in the eye when he is in trouble. Oliver is receptive and puts his ears back, then goes and lays down as to say he is sorry. When I do this, he wants to eat me! He tries to bite, and he growls and barks. I am home all the time and have been for his entire life. He feels as though he is dominant to me, and this is dangerous in my opinion. How do I establish dominance with him? Nothing is working! Help please!:(
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Hey welcome to the Forums, and thank you for reaching out to try and get help, that's great.

The dominance theory has long been thrown out as being flawed, and is indeed outdated as well as thinking you must 'dominate' your dog, you really don't have to. A constant battle for status in wolves (or dogs for that matter) just doesn't exist, but unfortunately it has been popularized too much in current TV because it makes for sensational shows and looks for quick fixes... we humans are addicted to both, lol. Many of us have started out there, but have crossed over and dismissed that way of training, with much better results and it feels better in my heart than anything I did previously!

So that's good news, there are tips and tricks that will help you establish a role as benevolent leader and not a dictator... Your puppy is giving you all kinds of signals. I recommend researching new ways of training that won't involve trying to stare down an 8 months old pup.
First of all stop with the stare down, you're lucky the dog doesn't bite you or your husband, but that type of training will suppress the dog and then inevitably a repressed dog will lash out of frustration, it's normally never aggression. See? More good news, I don't believe it's true aggression, it rarely is... :D I really recommend a force free trainer and classes, it's such an eye opener, but not one that still does the ole outdated way of doing things with choke collars and other aversive methods, try it.. force free... it's a really good tool!

What is it that you're doing when you say correcting?

For begging I recommend a game called 'It's yer Choice' It's amazing and works very fast...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc
 
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Thanks for the input. I guess I have heard all wrong in the past. I had a shelter before who was very shy but also did everything to please me. I understand every dog is different, but it is hard when you get a pup who is a 180 from your last. I didn't mean my husband got physical with him, but held his collar so he would pay attention. Guess that is wrong.

Oliver only minds if I have a treat in hand, and I don't want to have to carry food constantly. If he digs, I revisit the hole and tell him no dig. I swear if I say the word no, it sets off this defensive barking. I have never done anything more than just saying no or bad. I don't know what to do anymore. We have 2 other dogs (both older than he) and he is constantly biting and growling and barking at them. I accept that he is a puppy and he needs time to grow up, but obviously, with everyone's comments, I'm doing it all wrong.
 
Wolves and most other wild dog relatives have alphas, but it's not a static thing. Alphas can rotate, change, there might be two, etc. Domesticated dogs are completely different. They are not pack animals anymore - the relationship between domestic dogs and humans was never a pack relationship because humans did not select for it. Dominance/park theories are not applicable. Staring in your dog's eyes, trying to use body language (or verbal) to intimidate, and other similar techniques that stem from dominance-type training will not get you the results you want. Like Clantyre said, it's a control thing - not you controlling your dog but you controlling the environment in which your dog resides. Your dog will learn who controls the food, the toys, the door to the great outdoors, etc.

Find a way to get your dog to want to work with you. Don't make him do it.
 
521collective said:
Oliver only minds if I have a treat in hand, and I don't want to have to carry food constantly.
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When they are babies, I ALWAYS have something with me, even if it's Cheerios. That way, I am the most amazing, awesome, most interesting thing they have in their world. Puppies are easily distracted, and so to have an easy, central focus point makes training that much easier. Now that they are older, I am not a walking pez dispenser, but there are some stashes around the house, so I can surprise them with goodies, thus reinforcing my awesomeness.

521collective said:
If he digs, I revisit the hole and tell him no dig. I swear if I say the word no, it sets off this defensive barking.
Click to expand...

Defensive barking is because he doesn't have a single clue why you dragged him back to his well engineered cool spot and are being mean to him. He's telling you that he doesn't understand.

What needs to happen is for you to CATCH him digging, calmly call him to you (this is where having treats is good), and then direct him to something more appropriate. But the key to having him come to you is #1: Nothing bad will ever happen when he chooses to come to you, and #2: you have to be more interesting than the hole he is engineering for you.
 
All of the previous posters have great advice and suggestions for you, and I completely agree. I would like to add that Shelties are different than many other breeds. They do not respond well at all to negative reinforcement. They're considered a more sensitive breed, which is why some seem reserved or cautious.

Shelties do well with positive reinforcement, period. As in, praise your puppy when he's good and as others have said, redirect and refocus when he misbehaves -- and only when you catch him in the act, not after the fact. That doesn't mean that you never say a firm "NO" to them, you do. It should be followed by redirecting them immediately. Taking a class, perhaps in obedience, would be good for both of you, but make sure it's positive reinforcement and not a trainer who uses dominance. Look for someone who is familiar with Shelties.

Eight months can be a tough time...your pup is a teenager and, like teenagers, he's testing you. Don't be discouraged...with the right training, this too shall pass and you'll have a loving, obedient dog.
 
Hey, no you're not doing it all wrong, don't feel that way :D
It's in the past you did what you did, based on the info you had at the time.

Don't feel bad or that it was all wrong or for the birds :biggrin2:
I am sure some of it worked...
As I said many of us have switched over and then we had a dog teach us how it can be better!
With a lot of help (by real dog trainers) I have transitioned over to almost never having to physically correct or influence a dogs behaviour, other than using my brains more lol... Super important to me now to always involve the dog's brain (and mine.. keeps me on MY toes) instead of trying to dominate them :D
 
I think you've gotten great advice! And I agree -- good on you for asking for help. Lord knows, you'll get scads of it here! :lol:

On a further note, I swear I get better responses when I say, "Sit, please." "Layla, come here, please. Thank you!" When I treat my four with respect -- as, for example, I might treat a four year old child -- I get happy results.
 
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