Sheltie Thinks He Is Dominant and Aggression Towards Me During Discipline

Ahh sounds like you are at the exact same place I was 6 months ago, relearning all training methods for a wonderful Sheltie :) As people have said they don't respond to the deep growl 'No' or 'eheh', it makes them frustrated, you have to show them what you do want them to do. There are plenty of youtube videos out there on games and training with positive reinforcement, I realy like Kikopup and Pam's dog training, helped me immensely!
Staring is really confrontational for dogs, if he is really misbehaving, just hold him by the collar away from you and don't look or talk to him. They tell from our body language that we aren't happy, they can't really understand our words, though as he gets older he'll get better at understanding what you do say with your words.
I'm home all the time as well, I've had to create my personal space, ie not patting her everytime she comes to me but calling her to me when I say its play/affection time so she learns I control the affection/games etc.
 
I think you've gotten great advice! And I agree -- good on you for asking for help. Lord knows, you'll get scads of it here! :lol:

On a further note, I swear I get better responses when I say, "Sit, please." "Layla, come here, please. Thank you!" When I treat my four with respect -- as, for example, I might treat a four year old child -- I get happy results.

You know, I will speak politely and formally to my dogs. If they are under foot, I'll ask them to "excuse me boys" or "would you mind getting off the sofa?" They really do respond better when you use manners. :biggrin2:
 
I can sympathise with you as I would have had major problems with my youngest sheltie if he had been my first experience of the breed.

As others have said, it sounds like a lot of the difficulties you are experiencing stem from your pup being confused about your expectations. In my experience, many shelties (and a lot of dogs in general) are very uncomfortable with being physically restrained and stared down, even by people they know well. Potentially this could lead to fear of eye contact so try to avoid doing this if you can. It isn't easy to tell exactly what's happening from a description but I wonder if Oliver is 'shutting down' after your husband reprimands him? Dogs have no concept of remorse or feeling sorry so creeping away and laying down is unfortunatly more likely to be due to a feeling of uneasiness or confusion. Also,men that have deeper, growly voices are more likely to be intimidating to some dogs. It is therefore not likely to be a case of Oliver wanting to dominate you. As a rule, shelties are not a breed where genuine dominance problems are seen. They are far, far more likely to be submissive or fearful - which can bring a different set of training challenges!

Unless he is caught in the act , telling him off for a misdeneamour after the event will serve no purpose and will only confuse him. 30 seconds later is too late - his mind has already moved on.

With regards the specific problems that you are having, my first question would be what training are you doing with him? An 8 month old pup is like a little sponge and will be learning pretty much all the time. Several short, positive training sessions (5-10 minutes) spaced out during the day teaching him all the useful stuff (sit, down come etc) will pay dividends for his general behaviour and also make him much more receptive to you. It will also tire him out so he won't have as much surplus energy to get into mischief.

Digging - can you prevent him having access to where he is digging, especially on his own? Prevention is better than cure so if he can't dig, he won't. It is entirely possible to train a determined digger that he is permitted to dig but only in a certain place (like his own sandpit.) Lots of people with terriers have had success in this way. If Oliver is digging because he is bored, there are a lot of products like treat balls that will direct his attention in a less destructive way. A kong filled with goodies and frozen kept my boys happy and occupied for several hours and is cheap and simple to do. If you take away his option to dig then it will need to be replaced with some form of alternative occupation rather than leaving a 'void'.

Begging - if he's got a crate, teach him it's a great place to go during mealtimes (kong is a good idea here too). There are plenty of excellent crate training video turorials on YouTube, books and DVDs to give advice about how to make him really happy about his crate. Same rules would apply to a pen or even shutting him behind a barrier while you are eating. BUT he has to see it as a good place to be, not a place of punishment. Never, ever feed him titbits when preparing food or eating either. The 'It's Yer Choice' game that Toffee's Mom mentioned is really excellent.

Excited peeing - difficult to advise without knowing all the circumstances. Get him checked by the vet in case there is any infection. Keep the excitement triggers as far as possible restricted to somewhere where it doesn't matter. (eg. greeting people outdoors or playing games on a easy clean floor surface. )He will be far more likely to grow out of it if a big deal is not being made. Excitement peeing isn't something you can train to stop as it's an involuntary rather than deliberate action so you need to manipulate the circumstances rather than the dog.

Behviour with the other dogs - is he trying to initiate play? My youngster can be very boisterous with the older dogs when he is trying to get them to play with him. He bites, growls and barks at them sometimes, especially if nothing much has happened that day and he has energy to burn. He gets frustrated if they don't respond as they are both seniors so not always up for a game. If that is the case then it's up to me to step in and redirect his attention and energy (a bit of training time) or just seperate him until he cools off because pestering the older dogs isn't appropriate. Often they will play and having the younger dog around keeps them active and fit but they are not always in the mood for his exuberance.

Barking is often an outlet for frustration, especially with shelties. It could be in many kinds of situations (food coming too slowly, not understanding a training excersise, owner not being quick enough getting ready for a walk etc). There are many, many threads on here about dealing with barking for all sorts of reasons.

With any sort of behaviour issue it is necessary to look at why it is happening rather than just trying to modify the behaviour itself. So if Oliver is digging because he is bored, you might be able to stop the digging but if he is still bored he will probably find something else to occupy himself which may be even less acceptable.

You don't need to carry treats around all the time - I have a pot by the door or in a strategic place where I can quickly grab up a few when needed. Treats are however more or less essential to the training process and it isn't really fair to try and train a dog or expect cooperation when there is no reward on offer. My 14 year old still gets a treat for coming to me during a walk. He will come fine without an incentive but it just makes it more enjoyable for him (and he comes a bit quicker when there is food on offer too!) You will gradually reduce the number of times that you need to give a treat (once a behaviour has been learned then intermittant rewarding works much better than consistant for motivation) but to begin with they will be necessary.

Lastly, don't beat yourself up that you are getting it all wrong. I'm guessing everyone who has given advice has 'got it wrong' at some point and that is how we have gained experience. I know I would change more than I would do the same if I had the time with my earlier dogs again and it would still be a culture shock taking on a different breed. Even though two of mine are related and all are shelties they are very different and my interaction with them varies between each dog. Dog training is a rapidly evolving science (?) anyway and probably techniques that are in favour now will need to be modified as our understanding of animal behaviour grows. What we did in the past was appropriate with the knowledge that was available at the time. So long as you are prepared to be open minded and try a flexible training approach then you'll be just fine. The responses you've had are all giving great advice for a starting point so hopefully they will be helpful for you. Please do keep us updated on how you are progressing with Oliver. Folk on here are always happy to talk (type) sheltie and very willing to assist if they can so I'm sure you'll do just fine. :smile2:
 
Thank you for posting your discipline problem here - I've had shelties in the past and just recently got a puppy after a few years break and I'm finding reading all the awesome responses here is a great way for me to learn to become a better owner.

I'm looking at doing a clicker training/puppy socialization class with my gal as soon as she has her second set of shots. It's going to be more for my benefit than hers - classes are really about training owners to work with their dogs.

I took obedience years ago with my very first shelties - back then people used choke collars, my 2 were so eager to please that corrections were seldom necessary, and they learned very quickly - but still I would never consider training that way now that I've done more research. I personally like Ian Dunbar's books…

It's funny how changing your mindset can alter the dog's behaviour. One of my first shelties drove me nuts with barking at the door and I never was able to get it under control until I hired a trainer to help out. Turns out I was triggering her barking - I used to get very anxious whenever the door bell rang anticipating her barking, and sensing my anxiety she associated the doorbell with something bad and did exactly as expected…I took down the "please don't ring doorbell sign", enlisted a bunch of my kids friends to come ring the bell and totally ignore her until she sat quietly at which time she got super treats. It didn't take more than half a dozen trials before she ran to the door and sat waiting for her treat. More importantly I learned that ignoring the behavior I didn't want and rewarding the behavior I wanted really works better than punishment.

Good luck with your puppy - this is such a great place to get advice. I'm really glad I stumbled upon it.
 
Hello! I have a sweet sheltie boy who is about 8 months old. We are having a problem with digging and also begging, and excited peeing. My husband can talk to him in a low harsh voice and hold him so that the pup looks him in the eye when he is in trouble. Oliver is receptive and puts his ears back, then goes and lays down as to say he is sorry. When I do this, he wants to eat me! He tries to bite, and he growls and barks. I am home all the time and have been for his entire life. He feels as though he is dominant to me, and this is dangerous in my opinion. How do I establish dominance with him? Nothing is working! Help please!:(

As already mentioned trying to dominate your dog is not good. It's about being a kind leader, a mother without fur.

His growling and barking at you is probably through frustration - I don't think he understands what you want from him. Why doesn't he do it to your husband - probably because he's too scared, leaning over and staring at a dog is a very threatening thing to do.

Let's have a look at the problems you mentioned.

Digging. This is a very natural behaviour for a dog, esp a young dog investigating the world. Rather than stopping him completely it's better to give him somewhere to dig. Here's a link to a recent thread on managing digging, it's something that comes up a lot so you are not alone. http://www.sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=18779&highlight=digging

Begging. Not sure where the problem is here. Often with unwanted behaviours they do something once or twice as a pup and we laugh at them and so they repeat the behaviour. Take notice of when he does the begging - is it to appease you or get your attention? If you want it to stop just turn your back to him when he does it, he'll quickly learn it doesn't have the same effect.

Excited peeing. If it's due to excitement it is not something he can control. His sphincter hasn't develop enough yet, it will get better as he matures. If it's 'submissive' peeing then he may not grow out of it. Submissive peeing happens when dogs are anxious or nervous - what is his posture when he does it - is he hunched over, his ears pulled back?

Honestly, he sounds like a good dog - if they are the only problems you are experiencing at 8mths then you are doing well. I would recommend going to some obedience/training classes though - they will help you and Olive establish a common language.
 
Whenever Honey starts getting fractitious and not listening (Not as much of a problem these days, but in the fall she starts getting a little nuts with all the squirrels in the yard gathering nuts) I go back to a few basics to make sure she knows I'm in charge... they might help with this a little.

When we're going outside or inside I block the door so that I can get out of it first, and so that I can get inside before her. I keep her on a leash while we're still on the deck and make her stay until I release her into the yard.

I'll start putting her bowl on the counter to fill it and make her sit quietly before it's put on the ground, and if she rushes it, it goes back on the counter. She has to wait for my release before approaching.

If she's going towards something in the house I don't want her to I start using my body to block and herd her away from it, rather than removing it immediately or just pulling her away.

They're silly control/dominance tricks, but they do put her in the mind of paying attention to me and where I am, and by using my body to demonstrate what I want, I don't have to tell her no, or use low voices. And of course in the middle of all this we go crazy with clapping and other excited reactions when she does something well. We don't pay much attention if she's gets something wrong, but if she gets something right we make the biggest deal ever over it. Sometimes this means treats, sometimes just lots of petting.
 
I'll start putting her bowl on the counter to fill it and make her sit quietly before it's put on the ground, and if she rushes it, it goes back on the counter. She has to wait for my release before approaching.

This is one of the first things I've taught every one of my dogs ... sit patiently, and no food until the word is given. It teaches them to inhibit impulses, which is indispensible for instilling good behavior. There's no more powerful impulse than the drive for food, and if they can inhibit that, they can inhibit anything.
 
Thanks to everyone who has given such great advice! I have been doing the "its yer choice" exercise with Oliver and he does quite well at it. I even got him to the point (after working up to it each time) where I can put the treats on his paws and then hand it to him to eat. I had trained him as a tiny baby to sit and wait at his bowl until I said he could eat. We have sit and down 100% and rollover at about 75%. I have taught him to sit by the garden gate on command so that he will not trash the garden/chicken run. By the way, he thinks he is a chicken sometimes! He will walk in the middle of them and "peck" around :)

He really is going to be a great dog. I know many of you have experienced loss of your best sheltie friends, and I am no different. My other sheltie who has gone to the rainbow bridge, was totally different. He had issues with shyness around other people, but was always wanting to please me. That being said, it is hard to have no expectations when that was your experience with the breed before. I know they are all different and have realized that subconsciously, I have set the bar too high for a puppy. He will get there, and I just need patience.

I will keep you updated, and hopefully I can get into a class soon. My ultimate goal is to do agility, mostly for fun, but I know that the basics need to be there before I get into that. Thanks again! Any other/ongoing advice is always welcome!
 
It's great to hear how well you have been getting on with "It's Yer Choice" game. I use that a lot as a calming/focus/control excersise.

I think it's difficult not to place some kind of expectation on a new puppy, especially if you've had a great dog of the same breed before, or you've seen other people with dogs of a breed that you've admired. I went to great lengths to get my Epic, travelling to the other end of the country because he has the same breeding as my wonderful Revel. For the most part though, the two of them are as different as chalk and cheese!! :rolleyes2: Epic is a world away from my others in terms of temprement and sometimes it has been demoralising. For instance he was well over a year old before he could sit and let me take more than a couple of tentative steps away - something the others were doing easily at 4 months. But I have also realised that he has qualities they do not. We started agility training last November and his drive and enthusiasm for this is wonderful. He has just turned 2 and maturity over the last 6 months has helped a great deal.

I know you will have as much fun with Oliver as I am with Epic. I will look forward to reading your updates and don't forget to share photos etc too - we love pictures here! :smile2:
 
We were in the same situation a few years ago. Hollie was quite timid and very eager to please us. As a result she was very easy to train and would do anything we asked. After she passed at the age of 13 we got Shelby who is the complete opposite. She is very outgoing and everything is life is fun and games. She doesn't care if we are upset. We were not used to this behavior at all. When Shelby was caught being bad (like chewing furniture) she would look at you like "yeah I did that, get over it and let's play". It was very frustrating. But after finding some great trainers who taught us she is now a very well behaved girl. One of the best things I learned was how to think like a dog and understanding why they react the way they do. Once we understood that everything seemed to click.

Not to say she doesn't have her quirks that we constantly work on. Like barking at reflections and flashlights but we can understand each other now. I think that it just takes some time until you understand each other. When she gets crazy with the reflections on the ceiling we reinforce the down and quiet. If she remains down and quiet the entire time she always gets a treat.

It was hard learning to ignor the unwanted behaviors but it really does work. She learned quickly no to beg and that we decide when to play she doesn't. I am confident that much you will get through this and look back one day and say "wow we did it and what a great dog". I know we did.

Most of all she has taught us not to take life so seriously. She has taught us to enjoy life to the fullest as she does. Which really has been a blessing in disguise.
 
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