To debark or not to debark

Thats really sad. Debarking is not the same as tail docking. It will be the end of Victorian confirmation shows (and a lot of trials) because in many states (including where I live) debarking is legal. Sheltie owners will be hardest his because at least half show shelties are debarked! This is done because people live in suburbia and neighbours do get ansy!

And having had a dog poisoned by a rancid neighbour when he was visiting the breeders house I am in full support of debarking! The poisoning was in Victoria too - the neighbour had not even bothered going to the council so the breeder could not legally get her dogs debarked.
 
In the veterinary profession we deal a lot with 'mutilation' controversies like ear cropping and especially declawing, and for at least the latter the arguments are more emotional than accurate. I have been on anti-declawing boards, attempting to bring some balance, and the abuse, mostly personal, I was hammered with by 'the pack' was universally astounding. To be clear, i am not an advocate of declawing and if it were made illegal that would be fine with me, but the arguments should be based on reason.

With this background in mind I recall the first time I went to the aol Sheltie breed forum and saw a thread 'Debarking?' I thought, oh, this is going to be painful to read - they are going to rip her so badly. After all, Shelties are so much the most 'human' of breeds, (somehow the thought of debarking beagles has less emotional baggage - its unfair, but a reality,) and Sheltie owners tend to be, shall we say, more attached than most, and by 'most' I basically mean 'all'.

So I see all these replies of ' Sure, i debark all of mine at a young age, no big deal.' And I'm thinking 'What the hell???'
I'm not taking a stand here pro or con (I'm new here and not looking for trouble :cool: ) but I am very surprised that what seems very controversial is so matter of factly accepted in this breed, more than almost every other, (I can't recall running across it on other boards,) as just something you do, without more strident objection. indeed, it seems like proponents are more in 'attack mode' than opponents. - Dr. Mac
 
I want to say that having heard everyone's views and speaking with people and even seeing how things are in Australia while I was there, I do sympathize and totally see where some of you are coming from. I'm still no fan but I do see how one might turn to it rather than have your dogs poisoned. I used to be much closer to the extreme of no debarking at all but this discussion has really helped. I realised this when I had a "discussion" with a friend over debarking (started from talking about the Aussie breeder situation) and she was saying how debarking is an excuse for a lazy owner who doesn't want to train and how she thinks ecollars are more humane than debarking. I found myself getting very agitated at her closemindedness and started defending those who debarked and explaining that in certain circumstances debarking is really the only way to go if one wants to keep the dogs. :lol:

I guess I've been really lucky or the people around me are just more tolerant. I suspect this might be why my views were as such before and why my friend couldn't see otherwise either. I do know that I am very lucky to have such a great forum to go to and air these things and to learn more about how/what things are done/like elsewhere and be exposed to so many different opinions. Thanks you guys!

Re: weird laws, we've got that no cellphone use while driving too. And we've got no sale of chewing gum as well. Beat that! :lol:
 
I think you are right romeo's mum. It helps to hear the experiences of people

Before my lovely Kimba was poisoned I didnt think much of debarking either. But having experienced what can happen when debarking isnt available makes a huge difference. And also knowing that debarking is not as bad as it sounds - they can still bark, they still have their voicebox. While I support debarking (voice lowering as people here are now calling it) and I have a barker in Deska, I haven't debarked. However I already had 1 body corporate complaint, and my body corporate has thrown someone out of their home because of a barking dog - if it became a choice of my dog being seized and being kicked out of our home, then I would consider doing it.
 
I will weigh in just a smidge here..............for all the years I have been breeding and keeping shelties upwards of 30+ dogs over that time, we have always de-barked the dogs that remain here. One reason is because at our waterfront home in Maine, the dogs barking is amplified off the water, and all my neighbors want to enjoy their homes as much as I do. My whole group moves up in the summer, and I want to keep the relationships positive. The other reason, is we travel for shows with many dogs, and I can't stand barking. I have to see who is grooming around us at the shows, because I get very cranky if we have a whole line of terriers next to us barking 24/7. It is the barking for entertainment I can't stand. Anyway.........that said, from the dogs point of view, nothing has changed. If anything, they are happier, because I am not running out to bring them in when they bark, or yelling at them to be quiet. We use a vet that specializes in de-barks, and has for probably 20 years. If you tell him how much sound you would like your dog to make, he comes pretty close. You can certainly still hear my dogs.
 
No One-Size Answer - Let Common Sense Prevail

I learned so much about this from Barbara Thompson of Barwood Shelties. She explained debarking to me and why she chooses to debark. She's one of the greats in the field, and I admire her so very much. I choose not to debark because it's not an issue where we live (in the country with loads of room).

But if I lived in the city or suburbs and I had a Sheltie whose barking disturbed the neighbors, I would not hesitate to debark. I view it similar to spaying and neutering: both breeding and barking are natural behaviors. But responsible dog ownership means helping the dog be a good citizen and good neighbor. We manage the breeding instinct so that unwanted puppies don't fill the pounds and shelters. We should also manage other behaviors that cannot be trained away reasonably -- like Sheltie barking -- so that people view dogs not as nuisances, but as loving companions who improve life. If that means debarking a loud Sheltie, so be it.
 
Interesting perspective Chris. Sca is still barked but I am working to keep him from getting yippy. Right now he does get sassy at times but is not bad. Of course if you had a whole herd of Shelties :biggrin2:
 
I think MissJennygirl said it best...(and it does aggrivate me to no end at shows when the 20 crates of terriers sets up next to you after your there:no:)
I currently have 4 shelties and I live in the burbs. So my neighbors are close enough. I recently had one of mine debarked because she barks at everything!!!!!!! She still barks but its not a high pitched sound and im not yelling at her to be quiet every two seconds. After having her done I am thinking about doing my other problem barkers done I only wish I had done it earlier it would have made both of us much happier!
 
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Chris said:
But if I lived in the city or suburbs and I had a Sheltie whose barking disturbed the neighbors, I would not hesitate to debark. I view it similar to spaying and neutering: both breeding and barking are natural behaviors. But responsible dog ownership means helping the dog be a good citizen and good neighbor. We manage the breeding instinct so that unwanted puppies don't fill the pounds and shelters. We should also manage other behaviors that cannot be trained away reasonably -- like Sheltie barking -- so that people view dogs not as nuisances, but as loving companions who improve life. If that means debarking a loud Sheltie, so be it.
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THIS is exactly why my breeder debarks all her dogs as puppies. When you live in a suburb, on a lot that is between 1/8 and 1/4 acre and your nearest neighbors are maybe the width of two cars (your driveway and their's) away from you, you need to be aware of that situation.

Shelties bark. A pack of Shelties love to group bark. She has 4, currently, and wants to maintain a good relationship with her neighbors so she opts for debarking.

I also live with neighbors in very close proximity; and one set is very quick to call the police on ANYTHING! They actually did call the police on our Finnish Spitz barking one day when we were at work. With neighbors like those, darn right I'd debark my dog before having to give it up for "nuisance barking". (We are planning on bringing a pup home sometime in the spring when my breeder has another litter from either Edan's sister or half-sister so this is something we need to consider.)

Debarking is something that each pet owner needs to consider based on their own personal situation. It doesn't hurt the dog and they can still communicate quite well with muted voices. As Chris said, let common sense rule.
 
SheepOfBlue said:
Interesting perspective Chris. Sca is still barked but I am working to keep him from getting yippy. Right now he does get sassy at times but is not bad. Of course if you had a whole herd of Shelties :biggrin2:
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I do -- four! I love hearing DH saying, "Indoor voice, Annie Laurie."
 
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