To Debark or not?

[JLSOhio51]

Silaria:

I appreciate the point I believe you to be making in your post. I also feel it is important for us to separate fact from fiction (or more accurately proven data for anecdotal information) when we post. The meat, of the discussion (in this case to debark or not to debark) is secondary to the thought process that goes into making the decision (my opinion only). Those who choose either side of this issue solely based on preference and feel are just as justified as those who rely on facts alone.

What's important (IMO) is to keep in mind that many of us visiting this forum are not as solid in our positions about various things as many who post here. New dog owners, new Sheltie owners, etc., are here in large part to learn, and we owe it to them to be clear when we post what we believe from what we know. I do not suggest that any poster here is wrong, only that fact or belief should be spelled out clearly.

 

[JacqueZ]

I don't have any experience with debarking dogs (just a lot of appreciation for the fact that our naighbors are all older ) but in regards to shelties in apartments, if you find a good complex I don't see it being any worse than them being in a house. We were in an apartment when we first got Honey. It had lots of land around it, and there were many parks nearby so she got just as much exercise.

In fact it was really nice because there were always dogs for her to play with when we went outside. It's great for socializing.

While living in the apartment, Honey barked a lot less as well. People near the door just turned into a normal occurance for her, and my neighbors assured me that she wasn't making any noise when home alone and in her crate.

I know when we stay in hotels with her she is very noisy at first, but as we continually tell her no, and work with her she gets much better.

If you're worried about making the decision for surgery you could perhaps try her in the apartment, but speak to the neighbors and ask them to let you know if it's getting out of hand, and let them know you have a solution to the problem if it is, that way they'd be more likely to bring it up, rather than take matters into their own hand...?

 

[Jess041]

So I have a question for OP. Do you feel like you need to do it now or in the near future before you move? Because if I were you, I would wait until I got to scope out the neighbor situation in the new living situation. Maybe you will end up with incredibly friendly neighbors who don't mind your dogs barking. If you do end up with complaints then I would do the procedure. But I do understand being worried about someone wanting to harm your dog... there are some very evil people in the world.

I am not against bark softening, but I have not had my dog bark softened and I probably won't unless I find her barking is a problem. Right now we're in an apartment and she doesn't bark at home (unless asked). She really only barks when she's playing at the dog park. But if she were to start barking at every little noise and in her crate all day, and I were getting complaints, I would probably have her bark softened if no other solution worked.

Also I just wanted to add, I live in an apartment with my Sheltie and she does wonderful. I think like any living situation, the key to success is to make sure your dog gets as much exercise as they require. So please don't fret about that, especially if it's temporary! Although I will say this- Missy will continue to be an "only dog" until I get a house with a yard, because I'm not going up and down stairs with two dogs!

 

[Tabitha]

I said what I said knowing that I probably would not have the support of everyone. But let me ask you this; why do some states band debarking? Well it's the same as with pit bulls. I'm not a fan of them, but many many people swear that they are the best dogs same as many SN members will do for their shelties. But the fact is they are known to have aggression problems. Not saying pit bulls in genral are aggressive, same as debarking. It's not always dangeras, but from what I have read, the videos I've watched, the vets that I've spoken to, all lead up to one thing, it's just to big of a risk to take. Especially in a temporary situation.

I'm sorry if some people here don't like my opinion on the matter. I said nothing with the intent of offending anyone. I was only giving a warning with the facts I know. I wasn't going to show this video because I thought it would be to graphic. But it is apparent that you are very used to debarked dogs, so here it is;

Vets speaking out about devocalizing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7MFE7y6xAE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Jess041]

I said what I said knowing that I probably would not have the support of everyone. But let me ask you this; why do some states band debarking?
It's not always dangeras, but from what I have read, the videos I've watched, the vets that I've spoken to, all lead up to one thing, it's just to big of a risk to take. Especially in a temporary situation.
I'm sorry if some people here don't like my opinion on the matter. I said nothing with the intent of offending anyone. I was only giving a warning with the facts I know.

Tabitha,

Everyone here at SN is entitled to their opinion and that is exactly what the OP was requesting- "would you do it if you were in my shoes?" What other posters were trying to point out was that some of the things you said were stated as if there were fact, instead of opinion, with no supporting evidence. Bark softening is a controversial topic in the world of dogs, and I think that causes at lot of misinformation to be passed around. I think that with a lot of topics, the people who choose one side are going to find a lot of evidence to support their side, while people on the other side are going to do the same thing. This is why I hate politics! I think it's important that we keep an open mind and do our due diligence to research and form our own educated opinions.


Sorry I quoted before you edited your post.. I removed the video and stuff that isn't relevant to bark softening.

 

[take4roll10]

Everyone here at SN is entitled to their opinion and that is exactly what the OP was requesting- "would you do it if you were in my shoes?" What other posters were trying to point out was that some of the things you said were stated as if there were fact, instead of opinion, with no supporting evidence. Bark softening is a controversial topic in the world of dogs, and I think that causes at lot of misinformation to be passed around. I think that with a lot of topics, the people who choose one side are going to find a lot of evidence to support their side, while people on the other side are going to do the same thing. This is why I hate politics! I think it's important that we keep an open mind and do our due diligence to research and form our own educated opinions.

Perfectly said!

I'm sure it is more difficult with 3 dogs, but I lived in an apartment with a barker for two years and never had a complaint. Yes, my neighbors would joke around and say "your dog is so angry", "why is Bailey so mad?". I didn't want to be a rude neighbor and would always apologize for her barking and told them to please let me know if she is disturbing them. They always said it didn't bother them and they can barely hear her once they're in their apartment.

Thankfully, she wasn't a dog that barked for hours at a time. Her main barking was when the neighbors were entering or exiting their apartment. She is very territorial.

I did get a barking complaint once when I lived in a townhouse. It really irked me because I would've preferred the neighbor came me and discussed it with me first, like if there is a particular time of day that my dog was barking. I would've done my best to stop it. Instead they went straight to city. And honestly, I don't think it was always my dog barking. Yes, she barked, but so did a ton of other dogs in the neighborhood. I think they heard dogs barking and assumed it was mine.

Would I ever debark? Yes, I would consider it if it came down to me having to give up my dog or not being able to find a place to live or getting tickets because I can't control it.

If I was in your situation, I would first find a home and see how it goes. Talk to your neighbors. Tell them to let you know if your dog is ever disturbing them.

Like someone else pointed out, even when you debark, your dog can still make a barking sound, so it will probably still get your other dogs going. I also believe I once read that there is the risk of your dog's bark becoming worse or returning to it's normal pitch despite being debarked.

 

[JLSOhio51]

I said what I said knowing that I probably would not have the support of everyone. But let me ask you this; why do some states band debarking?...

Just to make sure everyone is clear about my point. It doesn't matter which side of any discussion posters take as far as I am concerned. In the case of debarking, I am not at a point of supporting or not supporting either side. My only issue is that posters would do those of use craving knowledge a great benefit by letting us know when someone has offered an opinion as opposed to a decision based on citable sources. We all have a tendency to accept information coming from particular trusted sources. For me, it helps to know if my source has chosen a path because their zeal and passion led them there (very valid) or because they simply looked at the facts (also valid).

 

[Sheltiemama]

I would do it and I would do it while I was with a vet that I knew was good about doing the procedure. I would not want an unknown vet attempting something that he wasn't really good doing.

My first Sheltie (Scotty went to the rainbow bridge 2 years ago next Monday) came to us debarked. He had a bark that could be heard with no problem but it wasn't horribly loud, high pitched and sounding like nails on a chalkboard. (I currently have one of those in case you were wondering but we have 3 acres so he doesn't bother anyone but me)

He was happy, healthy and seemingly never missed the original bark that I could ever tell.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've heard of a dog chocking to death on it's food from it going into it's lungs because of this surgery and many other life altering or endding situations from debarking.

I'd like to see that documentation, because I have been in Shelties for 15 years and have never heard of those things being caused by debarks. I'd like to see some solid documentation of the fact that making the vocal cords smaller causes choking and death, as implied above. Especially the food in the lungs thing, and how the debark caused that. I'm not looking for things like surgical related infections, or anesthesia based issues (because you get those regardless of surgery type), only issues directly related to the debark itself.

Many people think it's inhumane and hate it (same with debarking) but just think. Your considering taking your dog to the vet and having hes voice REMOVED.

Sigh. This gets so old. No, the voice is not "removed". No, the dogs don't have any trouble communicating. No, the livestock don't stop respecting debarked dogs. No, there are no long-term issues with the dogs being depressed. No, no, no. Just stop. Using this kind of illogical and emotional rhetoric might work on some, but give us a break, most of us here are smarter than that.

Ideally, you could get the dogs to shut up. Ideally, we wouldn't have neighbors. Ideally, people wouldn't leave their dogs out to bark at the neighbors. But life isn't ideal. I'd LOVE for my neighbor to debark his non-stop barking dogs, but they can't be bothered to bring them in the house or clean up turds, so guess what? I listen to them.

I think what that animal rights produced video shows us is that there are some unskilled veterinarians out there doing debarks. They certainly picked the debarks that are not well done to illustrate whatever the point was. But you know what? there are unskilled veterinarians doing spays too. So I will still choose to find the best, most experienced surgeon I can that I know does a good job.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

But let me ask you this; why do some states band debarking?

Because frankly, people are suckered by emotional rhetoric that is spewed by animal rights folks. They tried to ban debarking in Maryland, and you know what? It died in committee. So some people see past the emotion, thankfully.