Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

BarbV

BarbV

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I decided to start a new thread on this topic, as it seems to crop up over and over in other threads.

First off, I would ask everyone to be respectful and not beat up on anyone who uses techniques that you do not a agree with. There is NO ONE RIGHT WAY! The purpose of this thread is to discuss the merits and pitfalls of various approaches.

I'm going to start off by saying that there is noone on this forum who is out there purposefully abusing their dogs. And I will say the same for the whatever trainer they have adopted as their role model. And yes, that includes Caesar.

So I'm going to be out front here and say that I employ a number of techniques:

- Positive, proactive, treat/praise techniques - when I have time!
- Reactive: yes, I do use a "modified" Caesar "touch" - and no, it does not involve kicking the dog. It does involve me sometimes planting myself in front of the dogs and putting my hand/fingers on their collars to get their attention. This means: "Hello, I'm talking to you! Pay Attention"
- And the craizy! " Shut up you fool dogs! You are driving me nuts" (Ok, I grant that this is not much of a training technique, but it sure feels good at the time")

Ok, let 'er rip!
 
I fiound this website today from a magazine that I picked up from my vet yesterday. There was a very good article on Battling Canine Aggression.

http://www.dogbasics.ca/default.asp

I couldn't find the exact article on the website but there are are similar articles on the website.
 
Disagree already and won't participate further in this thread for the sake of myself and everyone else :o
My last word... (I hope, lol) is: Call a spade a spade punitive training IS what Cesar uses, and he DOES abuse dog's trust and people are letting their dogs down if they continue using his approach. Its OUTDATED methods that are no longer needed as there are methods based on the science of learning.
 
I'm not a trainer and I don't know enough about training, dog behavior, or science/psychology to make any sort of educated guess. With that said though, even within agility, there are many different ways to train. Sometimes you may have to say "no". And other times you may never have to say that ever. For every dog, there are different ways of learning...which means, you have to adjust to that learning style.

An example would be, in agility, there are many different "systems" that big named trainers teach. And there are people who believe only one is the correct one. Or with Koji's reactivity. People believe I should only use Controlled Unleashed, and feel that classical conditioning is even wrong.

But like anything else in the world (religion, education, cultures, etc), no one thing is ever 100% correct to everyone.

That's my overall opinion of training and life in general.
 
When I first started watching CM tapes I liked them for several things- he clearly sends a message- your dog is an animal and should be treated as such, no stupid clothing or thinking it is my furry child and most important- find time to exercise your dog even if you have a big yard. The thing is common sense is not so common... 2 year old child was bitten by a 6 weeks old puppy pitbull /who they obtained at 4 weeks old BTW/, while mother was driving car and kid and puppy were in back seat, kid was eating sandwich... true story:cry:
all I said to mother that it was illegal in a state of IL to sell puppies under 8 weeks old, rest of it would have been pointless...
Most important part as Toffee's Mom mentioned that science is developing, what people did/know 20 years ago is not actual anymore. I was just reading book by John Rogerson, big name trainer in UK " In tune with your dog" first published 1988. He recommended teaching puppy to not lunge at bikes by staging a bicyclist with bucket of water to be overturned on puppy when puppy lunges... book is full of "dominance theory" and such


yet his new new book " Dog Vinci code" is a pleasure to read and my trainers just returned from his seminar- cool guy with cool training ideas, loving many of them.
Time have changed, and we know much more about dogs than we knew before, they not wolves, they don't live in packs, dominance theory is BS...
why hold on to yesterdays science?
And it is rather incorrect IMHO of course, to say that there is no one right way to train a dog. There are LAWS of dog behavior and they will be still the same, whether we want it or not.
 
I'm fascinated by this thread because I used to be a big CM fan... but most of what he seems to deal with is getting rid of problem behaviour... I'm more interested in teaching wanted behaviour.

Because my interest in this other training method is new... I don't know who's worth listening to/reading and who isn't. So I'm eager to see who others in this thread recommend.

Also, I have to say that I do believe that Cesar Milan and his methods DO have a place in the world. I particularly agree with his advice that staying calm and being confident is the way to go. You wouldn't listen to a teacher that didn't sound like she knew what she was talking about and wasn't at all confident about the material she was teaching... So why would a dog listen to someone who is unbalanced and just as reactionary as the dog?
 
for comparison here is one description of courses
OBEDIENCE INTENSIVE:
An introduction to Michael’s training system in theory and practice.

This course is a great stepping off point for anyone interested in our school, and is a prerequisite for many of our other courses. It details all the fundamentals of our approach to obedience and the dog/handler relationship, and helps the trainer build the “toolbox” he/she will use throughout the training process. This course thoroughly covers classical and operant conditioning, our reward based teaching systems, the use of verbal markers for communication, as well as building behavior through luring, spatial pressure, “leash pressure,” and shaping. We discuss the thoughtful introduction of aversives, and the creation of motivation in your dog through productive play. There will be both a lecture/theory portion, covering the science of the training, and a practical portion, that puts the theory into play. There are no prerequisites for this class. Students must bring a dog for the practical phase.


How does it sound to you?


now drum rolls please
next class from same website


PROPER USE OF THE ELECTRONIC COLLAR

The ecollar has become a popular and pervasive tool in modern dog training. Unfortunately there is very little in the way of behaviorally sound information available for those considering its use. Many trainers mistakenly view the ecollar as the “bigger stick” of dog training. This course will dispel that myth and help trainers develop a sound understanding of learning theory and how it affects the use of electronic collars, as well as teach trainers to incorporate the use of this tool into primarily reward based training systems with minimal stress for the dogs. We have a very careful and conservative approach to the use of the electronic collar that will help trainers avoid many of the common pitfalls of its use.
 
SheltieChe said:
And it is rather incorrect IMHO of course, to say that there is no one right way to train a dog. There are LAWS of dog behavior and they will be still the same, whether we want it or not.
Click to expand...

I have to say that I find this comment interesting considering the rest of your post. 20 years ago, we thought dogs were exactly like wolves. However, today, we now realize dogs aren't exactly like wolves and heck, even wolves don't act like what we thought 20 years ago. So, if there are laws and only one way to train a dog, doesn't that mean that 20 years ago, we were training them correctly too? And do you really think in another 20 years, we'll be training them exactly as we do today, because it's the only way, because there are laws (which I will remind you, have changed, because we don't know what the dogs really are thinking)?

I think this is why I rarely say there is only "one right way" to do something. We're all so very different. We don't see the world the same (I feel the same is true with animals).
 
I have learned that the variables are as many as the number or Dogs/people there are. Dogs are not robots, they are the sum of their genetics, experiences, preferences. Ditto for the people. There will never be "one way to train a dog" in my lifetime.

What I find so fascinating is that I have changed so much! My dogs have not changed that much, but I've learned alot about myself.

Am I fair, consistent, firm and fun? I try to be. Would I want to be at the end of my leash? Would I want to come running when I call? Would I trust me not to be hurt when asked to do something I found confusing or scary?

Anyway, we have to start somewhere. I continue to look for mentors who I believe to be: fun, fair, firm and have open minds and hearts.
 
There is one huge difference in the way I train Lexi compared to training Pyper.

Lexi needs calming down with exercise, quiet time, slow soft energy to get her to focus in and not start a game of tug with her leash or my pant leg.

Pyper needs to be pumped up. Lots of high energy, running around and getting her into a play mode to get her best performance.

Every dog is so different. I don't know how there could be only one way to train them.
 
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