Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

2GoodDogs said:
I have learned that the variables are as many as the number or Dogs/people there are. Dogs are not robots, they are the sum of their genetics, experiences, preferences. Ditto for the people. There will never be "one way to train a dog" in my lifetime.

What I find so fascinating is that I have changed so much! My dogs have not changed that much, but I've learned alot about myself.

Am I fair, consistent, firm and fun? I try to be. Would I want to be at the end of my leash? Would I want to come running when I call? Would I trust me not to be hurt when asked to do something I found confusing or scary?

Anyway, we have to start somewhere. I continue to look for mentors who I believe to be: fun, fair, firm and have open minds and hearts.
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I just wanted to say....I wouldn't mind being at the end of your leash if this is your way of thinking. :yes:

I too have learned a lot about myself and my dog. Especially since having to retrain his agility foundation work. I just never realized how different he was (not ultra different, but not the same as the people I've trained with). I've had to learn different techniques to help him understand his job, what he's learning, etc.
 
Ellis soooooooooooooooo different than my two previous Shelties that I know for sure that there is not one way to teach a dog. Ellie's mind just works differently. It has really been trial and error for me with her finding what works and my methods with her would not have worked with my other two and vice versa.

The thing that has been consistent with my training techniques over 30 plus years has always been, gentle, fun, POSITIVE, non-harming (psychological or physical) training.
 
BarbV said:
I decided to start a new thread on this topic, as it seems to crop up over and over in other threads.

First off, I would ask everyone to be respectful and not beat up on anyone who uses techniques that you do not a agree with. There is NO ONE RIGHT WAY! The purpose of this thread is to discuss the merits and pitfalls of various approaches.

I'm going to start off by saying that there is noone on this forum who is out there purposefully abusing their dogs. And I will say the same for the whatever trainer they have adopted as their role model. And yes, that includes Caesar.

So I'm going to be out front here and say that I employ a number of techniques:

- Positive, proactive, treat/praise techniques - when I have time!
- Reactive: yes, I do use a "modified" Caesar "touch" - and no, it does not involve kicking the dog. It does involve me sometimes planting myself in front of the dogs and putting my hand/fingers on their collars to get their attention. This means: "Hello, I'm talking to you! Pay Attention"
- And the craizy! " Shut up you fool dogs! You are driving me nuts" (Ok, I grant that this is not much of a training technique, but it sure feels good at the time")

Ok, let 'er rip!
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Thank you Barb. The only thing I would add to your post is while there is no one way, there is a wrong way. I think all reasonable people know what that is. Dog abuse in my mind is pretty clear. I use positive methods while training. With behavior, I try- sometimes I end up yelling "shut-up" when he barks incessantly at the T.V. Sandstorm is not a timid dog- quite the opposite. I respond accordingly. If he was a timid dog, I would probably not yell shut-up. I watch dog training shows, sometimes.
There are a few I like, for different reasons. I have never watched a dog show that involved abusing dogs as part of the training. Granted, I have not seen every single show. But I do know this;
I don't treat my dog unfairly, ever.
I have consulted with sheltie forum people regarding training, which I find highly valuable. And these people have helped me- it is an ongoing process! Now, can someone tell me how to stop SS from barking when the grocery delivery man enters my house?
 
Toffee's Mom said:
Disagree already and won't participate further in this thread for the sake of myself and everyone else :o
My last word... (I hope, lol) is: Call a spade a spade punitive training IS what Cesar uses, and he DOES abuse dog's trust and people are letting their dogs down if they continue using his approach. Its OUTDATED methods that are no longer needed as there are methods based on the science of learning.
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Hey, I'm sorry that you do want to participate. You've got alot to contribute and I was looking forward to your input. Maybe I titled this thread wrong. Maybe it should have been: Training 101 - what works for you!

The purpose of this thread is not to endorse Caesar or to endorse my own training methods for that matter.

The purpose is put out as many options as possible as to training methods to help both new and current dog owners to deal with their training issues.

We are overwhelmed with information and its very easy to fall into mainstream techniques that we find on the TV. I just thought this was a good opportunity to explore some of the positives and negatives of each approach.

It's up to you, but we do welcome your input.
 
I agree with Barb- Toffee'sMom- your'e one of my friends on the forum! I love hearing from you, mostly because we can have disagreements and stay forum pals!
 
I really have no problems with CM, he honest who he is and does not cover it. He does not train dogs, he does not compete/perform with with them. He is called to fix human lack of common sense and dogs that out of control because of that. Not that I like his methods, but it is more society problem and of course TV created lots of wanna be's who can do great damage to animals.
Who I really really dislike are people that do call themselves dog trainers, like that Michael person I quoted earlier, or that Brad person was mentioned in another post. They have schools, seminars, classes and followers yet they use twisted logic to attain their own needs and theories and are cruel to animals as a result.
as for different training laws are the same, at least at the level we know at present. So far I have looked at Chris Bach and Third way dog training, Susanne Clothier, John Rogerson, Susan Garrett, Bob Bailey and some of Kathy Sdao seminars. They are much more alike than different in their theories. Sure Chris uses more props, Karen Pryor is all about clicker while Susanne Clothier not so much, it is more like that saying about tomato:wink2:
and the greatness of really good dog trainer that they read and understand dog and dog understands them, and they capable of changing their mechanics, voice and movement depending on response they get.
I have been lucky to find Susan Garrett training reasonably early in our searches, and it changed our training forever and for good. Susan incredibly conscious about using punishers and so are her students. SG is very open about her training and shows everything she does in Puppy Peaks... does it mean that everyone will get dogs as well trained as she does? Does it mean my monkeys are just as good as SG pups? Nope, but we are 110 % better than where we started and a year from now we will be 110% better than today and have fun, games and play in the meantime:smile2: What SG gives me are tools based on her experience and today science as we know it. Rest of it up to me.
 
This is interesting to read, especially because we are new to shelties and training. We do have our 12 year old maltese cross but I must admit that there was very little training involved there. She was house trained in 3 weeks, rarely barks, has always stuck close to us, and she has never met a person she doesn't like so we just never bothered. As for the shelties they are different in how they respond to training so we use slightly different approaches with each of them.
Mikos arrived house trained, and knew 'leave it' and 'wait' when we got him so we built on that with PetSmart classes but I was not a big fan of their methods. I don't really like the technique of doing the 'little pop' on the lead and it doesn't really work with Mikos which tended to leave both of us frustrated. He has responded well to the clicker and treat training, and I also discovered that the tug toy is the best way to regain his focus when he gets fixated on something. We start classes in 2 weeks at a new place which is a positive training facility so hopefully this will work much better for him.
Brie has been been quite intriguing to work with. As a show dog she was lead trained but she had been doing very few walks so her behaviour on walks was less than stellar. She pulled ahead, criss crossed in front of me, and got a bit scared every time we passed a parked car. I cut her some slack for the first couple of weeks just so she could settle in with us in her new home. I discovered that talking to her worked far better than anything else to keep her at my side and calm her when she would panic a bit. I also shortened the walks for a bit and played ball in the park with her which was fun and relaxing for her. I am not sure when or how it happened but she now walks on a loose leash at my side, does not bother with people or dogs that we pass, and if I meet some one and talk for a few minutes she lays at my feet and waits! I would like her to get her CGN as well so we need to work on recalls, stay etc. so I guess we will see what works best for that.
So after all that I guess I am trying to say that I am discovering that each dogs personality seems to require a slightly different training approach here.
 
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