Was it a collar that looks like a strappy turtleneck? If so... it's the "Illusion Collar"... designed by his now-ex-wife to keep the leash up high on the neck... I don't think the top strap tightens... so hopefully it's not as bad as looping the leash around their throats.
Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???
- Thread starter BarbV
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Was it a collar that looks like a strappy turtleneck? If so... it's the "Illusion Collar"... designed by his now-ex-wife to keep the leash up high on the neck... I don't think the top strap tightens... so hopefully it's not as bad as looping the leash around their throats.
Yes I have seen some of his newer episodes, he does seem to slowly moving toward more positive techniques. Who knows maybe he will eventually go to all positive.
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
it's worse, because it keeps the collar exactly at the optimum choking point, during 'correction'
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Well that is certainly a dramatic way to state it, and from my previous experience, mostly incorrect.
If this collar is keeping the choke chain under the dogs ears and under the chin, rather than down the throat, then it's actually causing LESS choking than if if were farther down the neck. For example, use your hands and choke yourself just above your collarbone (where lots of ill-fitted collars of all types lie). Can't push very hard, can you? Now, move your hand up just under your chin, reaching around your jawbone towards your ears. Much better, ya?
So no, the collar is not for "optimum choking" because if that were true, we would want the collar around the neck closer to the collarbone.
Every conformation handler I know keeps the collars up under the dogs chins. Why is that? They are certainly not trying to find the "optimum choking point", at least I don't think they are. Hard to show a dog who is gagging. They do that because the control is better, and it causes LESS strain on the dog. This applies to handlers who use chokes, roscoes, and martingales.
This same principle applies to all those head collars as well. The neck strap is placed in the exact same location (as close under the ears/chin as possible), and is kept much tighter (by design) than most chokes should ever be.
So please don't be dramatic about the tool just because we have no use for it's designer (and for the record, with the exception of him telling people to treat dogs like dogs and to make sure they get exercise, I have little use for him).
But of course if I am wrong, and this collar of his actually holds the choke down the neck further, then disregard all of the above
I have not actually seen the product.http://www.cesarsway.com/shop/Illusion-Dog-Collar-Leash-System
Here's a link to a photo of the collar. Looks more human to me than the leash looped around the neck... or a prong collar... or maybe even a choke chain. It doesn't look like it actually tightens upon correction at all.
Either way... I think it's pretty safe to assume that, regardless of our opinions of CM, he wouldn't have a show (or any success at all for that matter) if his goal was to be cruel to dogs and his methods were never successful and only served to make the situation worse.
His methods are what they are... they're the same methods that were used widely for years... dogs were not the worse for wear. It's not like we had generations and generations of "shut-down" dogs because of those methods. We know of better ways to get to our goals now... but to villify CM as the worst thing that ever happened to dogs is a bit extreme. (IMHO)
Again, I stand by my comment that his message is a good one. They're not little humans... they're not children... they're animals and should be related to as such. It's unfair to them to project our own issues and psychology on them.
Here's a link to a photo of the collar. Looks more human to me than the leash looped around the neck... or a prong collar... or maybe even a choke chain. It doesn't look like it actually tightens upon correction at all.
Either way... I think it's pretty safe to assume that, regardless of our opinions of CM, he wouldn't have a show (or any success at all for that matter) if his goal was to be cruel to dogs and his methods were never successful and only served to make the situation worse.
His methods are what they are... they're the same methods that were used widely for years... dogs were not the worse for wear. It's not like we had generations and generations of "shut-down" dogs because of those methods. We know of better ways to get to our goals now... but to villify CM as the worst thing that ever happened to dogs is a bit extreme. (IMHO)
Again, I stand by my comment that his message is a good one. They're not little humans... they're not children... they're animals and should be related to as such. It's unfair to them to project our own issues and psychology on them.
KarenCurtis
Forums Sage
originally posted by ClantyreSheltie:
"If this collar is keeping the choke chain under the dogs ears and under the chin, rather than down the throat, then it's actually causing LESS choking than if if were farther down the neck. For example, use your hands and choke yourself just above your collarbone (where lots of ill-fitted collars of all types lie). Can't push very hard, can you? Now, move your hand up just under your chin, reaching around your jawbone towards your ears. Much better, ya?"
This is what I thought also (regarding the above post about the collar). I also agree that if the intent was to choke and gag dogs, why have a show?
"If this collar is keeping the choke chain under the dogs ears and under the chin, rather than down the throat, then it's actually causing LESS choking than if if were farther down the neck. For example, use your hands and choke yourself just above your collarbone (where lots of ill-fitted collars of all types lie). Can't push very hard, can you? Now, move your hand up just under your chin, reaching around your jawbone towards your ears. Much better, ya?"
This is what I thought also (regarding the above post about the collar). I also agree that if the intent was to choke and gag dogs, why have a show?
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
Well that is certainly a dramatic way to state it, and from my previous experience, mostly incorrect.
If this collar is keeping the choke chain under the dogs ears and under the chin, rather than down the throat, then it's actually causing LESS choking than if if were farther down the neck. For example, use your hands and choke yourself just above your collarbone (where lots of ill-fitted collars of all types lie). Can't push very hard, can you? Now, move your hand up just under your chin, reaching around your jawbone towards your ears. Much better, ya?
So no, the collar is not for "optimum choking" because if that were true, we would want the collar around the neck closer to the collarbone.
Every conformation handler I know keeps the collars up under the dogs chins. Why is that? They are certainly not trying to find the "optimum choking point", at least I don't think they are. Hard to show a dog who is gagging. They do that because the control is better, and it causes LESS strain on the dog. This applies to handlers who use chokes, roscoes, and martingales.
This same principle applies to all those head collars as well. The neck strap is placed in the exact same location (as close under the ears/chin as possible), and is kept much tighter (by design) than most chokes should ever be.
So please don't be dramatic about the tool just because we have no use for it's designer (and for the record, with the exception of him telling people to treat dogs like dogs and to make sure they get exercise, I have little use for him).
But of course if I am wrong, and this collar of his actually holds the choke down the neck further, then disregard all of the above
Great post, Rachael! This is an excellent explanation of collar fit, and one of the reason's why I like martingale's so much , when properly fitted and properly used.
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
I looked at the Illusion Collar....not my first choice for everyday use, but I suppose it could be effective if you had a problem dog.
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
I wish in hindsight that I never put CM's name in the title to this thread.
I wanted to avoid CM bashing and focus on any and all positive dog training techniques, regardless of the trainer.
Like others on this thread, I've used a few of his techniques to some degree of success and will continue to use them until I find something better.
So maybe its time to refocus this thread and document first of all the top 5 Sheltie issues; and then focus on the various techniques for dealing with them.
For me:
1) Herding my 20 year old son. As Ryan gets ready for school every morning, he has both dogs on his tail, barking every step of the way. The worst is when he actually leaves the house, both dogs jump and bark all over him. They will only stop if I intervene and plant myself between them and Ryan.
2) Indy patrolling the fence.....Bark, bark, bark at anyone that goes by.
3) Indy and Bacca barking and snarling at each other while the blow dryer goes.
4) Both boys hiding from the vacuum
I wanted to avoid CM bashing and focus on any and all positive dog training techniques, regardless of the trainer.
Like others on this thread, I've used a few of his techniques to some degree of success and will continue to use them until I find something better.
So maybe its time to refocus this thread and document first of all the top 5 Sheltie issues; and then focus on the various techniques for dealing with them.
For me:
1) Herding my 20 year old son. As Ryan gets ready for school every morning, he has both dogs on his tail, barking every step of the way. The worst is when he actually leaves the house, both dogs jump and bark all over him. They will only stop if I intervene and plant myself between them and Ryan.
2) Indy patrolling the fence.....Bark, bark, bark at anyone that goes by.
3) Indy and Bacca barking and snarling at each other while the blow dryer goes.
4) Both boys hiding from the vacuum
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
he deserves to be bashed and not worshipped.
Everyone thinks they can be a dog trainer just cuz they watched three of his episodes, he set real dog trainers and positive training back by years
Everyone thinks they can be a dog trainer just cuz they watched three of his episodes, he set real dog trainers and positive training back by years