Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

Phew...I stop checking the threads for a week and this is what happens??? I've scanned most of the messages, and I'm going to throw my two cents in:

Re: the video: The aggression was redirected aggression - Ceasar got in over his head. If he had been more into positive reinforcement, he may have gained control in the first few seconds by asking for a behaviour the dog was confident with (ie. a sit), reinforcing it positively, and getting the dog to work with him instead of against him. This MAY have worked - I would have been ready to react just in case it didn't. Once the dog committed to the attack, the only option Ceasar had was to control his head by keeping the collar up and using the leash to control his movement. There truly was no other option - if I was in that position, and a large dog committed to attacking while I was on the other end of the leash, I would have done the exact same thing. People need to keep in mind that dogs can do serious damage.

Where he went wrong: The biggest area (as far as I'm concerned) where he went wrong was not explaining to his audience that he screwed up, he set the dog up for failure, and that he wasn't choking the dog to train it, he was choking the dog to save his own hide after he screwed up. I never would have put myself in that position in the first place. This isn't an abandoned/unknown dog - there is a clear history of aggression. For dogs who I know have a history of aggression, I spend a ton of time establishing the basics and developing a relationship with the dog. Once the groundwork was done (and this could take months), I would expose the dog to the situation which had triggered the aggression, but I would have a muzzle on him (which I would have pre-conditioned him to as well). I have a lot more flexibility in how I control a muzzled dog who is in attack mode as opposed to an unmuzzled dog. I would have counter conditioned a competing emotional response. I would have tried to consider every possible trigger event and worked with the dog while those triggers were present. Also, ALL of this would have been in combination with the owner.

My biggest issue with the "popular" trainers on TV: This issue showed in the forum posts: people thought Caesar was choking the dog to train, as opposed to choking the dog because the dog could have maimed or even killed him otherwise. Now, on this forum, most people (thankfully) see this in the negative sense. Unfortunately, many average viewers trying to train their dogs at home will think about this in the positive sense, and choke their dog to punish any type of reactive behaviour. IMO, many of these training shows do more damage than good because they don't show any of the pre or post-training. You can't solve a dog's problems in an hour any more than you can teach a whole course of advanced calculus in an hour. What's even sadder to me is that there are people advertising themselves as "dog trainers" whose whole knowledge base is built upon watching shows like "Dog Whisperer" and "At the End of My Leash". I think the initial concept was good, if the audience was people who understood dog training and recognized the realities that were not being said. However, the huge majority of people have no idea what they are doing with their dogs, so the concept is disastrous.

(Finally) My Philosophy on Dog Training:
1. I firmly believe that the type of trainer I am reflects the type of person I am/want to be, and I keep this in mind when choosing my training methods. Therefore, I don't hit, slap, shake, or knock over my dogs. I prefer to focus on positive reinforcement through clicker training.
2. I often tell my students that in order to train dogs, they have to keep half an eye on their "Goodwill Bank". I put good will in the bank by using positive reinforcement. Every time I pet, play with, train, reward, or snuggle my pups I'm depositing into the bank. Correcting the dog (in any form) is a withdrawal from the bank. I tell my students they never want to get into an overdraft situation, because that's when their dogs start shutting down on them. A healthy balance in the goodwill bank = a healthy relationship with their dog. As a trainer, before I work with a dog where I know there's a history of aggression, I make sure there's a lot in the goodwill bank before I put it in a situation where a correction is necessary - otherwise, I'm setting myself and the dog up for failure.

Very nice post. i have been in that situation where the big dog on the end of the leash wanted to kill me and have done what ever I need to keep my face. Most of the time, I try to stay out of those situations by managing the enivronment and the dog ahead of time. ie muzzle and sedation. Once you make an error in judgement it all becomes about saving your hide.Hard on you and the dog.

The problem with correction based training is often the dog has no clue what the trainer is asking of them. It is don't do something but what is it. So that "touch" or kick creates a behavior void. The dog stopped the behavior. Now what. What behavior is should they be doing? The dog is left to guess. He may guess right(no more corrections) or he may guess wrong(more corrections) but erosion of trust is happening regardless.

Better to proactively teach the behavior. Teach the dog to look at you when you are walking it instead of staring down a passing dog. Teach them to sit instead of jumping on you. Teach them potty to outside instead of reacting to an accident. Praise them for lying quiet and chewing on a bone instead of yelling at them for running around the house.The list goes on and on. If you teach them well enough and through enough and focus on praising the behaviors you want, you may not never have to correct the wrong behvior.
 
as many of you pointed out- pet owners want quick fix.
Same as person goes to the doctor and does not want to hear about loosing weight and exercise program and only wants a pill that will fix it... no pet owner wants to spend time and money to train the dog and thus quick fix show popularity... I do not know if shows with really great trainers will ever be popular for this very reason, it will only touch certain small % of people.
CM is not the best but sure is not the worst out there and if he only choose to train killer whales or sharks...:lol:
I think if we only bother to educate people that certain breeds do not belong in the pet owners home and shelters/ rescues run their placement testing not based on whether you have a fence but whether dog you want is a good fit for your family we might solve tremendous amount of problems...
BTW I was made aware that in UK there was a court case where dog trainer was sued for using choke chain on a dog in a class and case won by owner so trainers in UK can not use choke chains anymore...
 
The problem with correction based training is often the dog has no clue what the trainer is asking of them. It is don't do something but what is it. So that "touch" or kick creates a behavior void. The dog stopped the behavior. Now what. What behavior is should they be doing? The dog is left to guess. He may guess right(no more corrections) or he may guess wrong(more corrections) but erosion of trust is happening regardless.

Better to proactively teach the behavior. Teach the dog to look at you when you are walking it instead of staring down a passing dog. Teach them to sit instead of jumping on you. Teach them potty to outside instead of reacting to an accident. Praise them for lying quiet and chewing on a bone instead of yelling at them for running around the house.The list goes on and on. If you teach them well enough and through enough and focus on praising the behaviors you want, you may not never have to correct the wrong behvior.

I agree 100%. Now to start our own training show....:winkgrin:
 
3Stars, SheltieChe and Justicemom, those are really excellent points you're making. I particuarly love 3Stars' "Goodwill Bank", what a great analogy to help people:yes:

Choke collars are not illegal in the UK. Certainly many confirmation handlers use them as a matter of course in the show ring, although they are considerably less popular than they used to be with the public and you don't often see them for sale in ordinary pet shops. Having said that, I think there is surprisingly sufficient public awareness for any trainer using a choke collar as a matter of course to be 'exposed' sooner or later. It would seem that while using a choke collar is deemed as unacceptable, pushing dogs around, forcing them to the ground etc is not.

I overheard a conversation recently where someone who had taken on a puppy farm rescue pup and had been having problems with it snapping and snarling said "I had to show her this was unacceptable very quickly so I put her into the submissive down position." :rolleyes2: Just what is this going to teach a frigntened, ill at ease dog?:no:


Electric shock collars on the other hand are illegal in Wales and there is a significant campaign to extend this across the whole of the UK. Hopefully it will suceed.
 
I agree, Julia....3Stars advice on the goodwill bank is a good one.

It recognizes, and we all know this, that positive reinforcement is best and it takes time to get the training. But 3Stars also recognizes that sometimes corrections are required. But there is a time for them, and should not be the first resort.

3stars.....I am curious as to what "correction" you feel is appropriate for a dog.....lets use say for a more mundane Sheltie example, as opposed to an aggressive large dog. Perhaps a non-stop barker????
 
Originally Posted by 3Stars
"Phew...I stop checking the threads for a week and this is what happens??? I've scanned most of the messages, and I'm going to throw my two cents in:

Re: the video: The aggression was redirected aggression - Ceasar got in over his head. If he had been more into positive reinforcement, he may have gained control in the first few seconds by asking for a behaviour the dog was confident with (ie. a sit), reinforcing it positively, and getting the dog to work with him instead of against him. This MAY have worked - I would have been ready to react just in case it didn't. Once the dog committed to the attack, the only option Ceasar had was to control his head by keeping the collar up and using the leash to control his movement. There truly was no other option - if I was in that position, and a large dog committed to attacking while I was on the other end of the leash, I would have done the exact same thing. People need to keep in mind that dogs can do serious damage."

3Stars, your whole post was excellent. I agree with the above, and yes, he should have told the audience he was in over his head. And yes, he should not have been. The time constraints on the show lead to these unwanted and avoidable situations. Unfortunately people won't see it that way, you are right. The show needs to change. Cesar was trying to solve a problem in ten minutes and then made it seem like the situation was solved. As I have stated before, I have seen many positive shows of his. He needs to keep it that way.
 
You have to earn right to punish your dog. You can only punish dog after you are very sure your dog knows behavior you want of him and understands what are you asking. You have to know why you doing it, what are you trying to correct and if it is effective.
 
Very interesting responses! Really enjoying the lively debate.

Someone mentioned depriving the dog of attention and I remembered a discussion I had with a Finnish agility friend recently. She was telling me about this training thing they call "Ice Age" where you basically ignore the dog completely for 2 weeks (only interaction being feeding time, but after the dog sits, and only after you stroke the head as a "dominant gesture"). If the dog approaches you, you make a loud AHREEMMM sound like you're clearing your throat to get the dog away. After those 2 weeks, there is a process of reintegrating the dog into the pack, but only if it listens and is obedient and comes when called, if it doesn't but goes to another person instead, it is shooed as if it's not welcomed. This is repeated until the dog actually goes to the owner when called. My friend went through this process with 2 of her dogs, and she said she saw an effect on her dogs and they listened to her more (though it didn't last incredibly long).

After my discussion with my friend, I tried ignoring Romeo for a day or two (that's about as much as I can muster!) but instead of being more obedient, I think he was abit depressed.

I googled this Ice Age method and only found one English speaking website that talked about it, but not in positive terms. Has anyone heard of this, or something similar?
 
Very interesting responses! Really enjoying the lively debate.

Someone mentioned depriving the dog of attention and I remembered a discussion I had with a Finnish agility friend recently. She was telling me about this training thing they call "Ice Age" where you basically ignore the dog completely for 2 weeks (only interaction being feeding time, but after the dog sits, and only after you stroke the head as a "dominant gesture"). If the dog approaches you, you make a loud AHREEMMM sound like you're clearing your throat to get the dog away. After those 2 weeks, there is a process of reintegrating the dog into the pack, but only if it listens and is obedient and comes when called, if it doesn't but goes to another person instead, it is shooed as if it's not welcomed. This is repeated until the dog actually goes to the owner when called. My friend went through this process with 2 of her dogs, and she said she saw an effect on her dogs and they listened to her more (though it didn't last incredibly long).

After my discussion with my friend, I tried ignoring Romeo for a day or two (that's about as much as I can muster!) but instead of being more obedient, I think he was abit depressed.

I googled this Ice Age method and only found one English speaking website that talked about it, but not in positive terms. Has anyone heard of this, or something similar?

I read something simular to that once (cant remember where) I remember it was a doberman pup the guy used. He took the puppy to fenced in safe area and waited until the pup was distracted with the smells, he then left it waiting until the puppy was very upset and scared before he would come back and pay attention to it. It was supposed to make the pup see that it is totaly dependent on the new owner for food and care, and that it should never lose focus on the person. I thought it was terrible and couldnt believe someone could be so heartless and cruel. It seems to me that would cause the pup to have issues with SA later on in life.
 
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