What would constitute "backyard" breeder for sheltie?

[jasonsjwou]

Hello everyone. I thank you in advance for your time and consideration of reading my post.

I have been looking to get a dog for 2 years. I've done ton of research during that 2 years, but didn't get a dog because I felt my lifestyle and age of my kids were bit unsuitable to have a dog.

I have two girls, 6 and 9, and I live in a suburban home with good size yard. (Don't have a fence yet, but I will put one up as soon as I get the "permission" from my HOA... urgh. well. another story) My wife stays home, and kids go to school. Pretty typical boaring midwestern lifestyle. We have no pets other than two turtles in the tank.

Here are my questions.

I hear from everywhere to stay away from petstore and backyard breeder puppies. Ok I get that. Petstore is easy to avoid... I just wont' go in there. But what would constitute a backyard breeder??? I go to breeder.net, or other places, they all claim they are AKC, UKC, etc, and they all say they care about their dog and the breed. They all say they've been breeding for 20+ years whatever, and their price ranged from $400 to $1600!!!

So I went to see three different breeders.

One breeder was in the middle of the farm, big fields, they had horses and cows, and the dogs were almost free-roaming. The dam and sire were there with the pups. It looked like a scene out of the movie "BABE". The dam and sire looked very pretty, extreeemly gentle, didn't bark no more than 2-3 short burst when someone came in/out of the door. We were sitting in a room next to the barn, and the breeder showed me the whole litter (7 pups - they were barely opening their eyes though) and my kids loved playing with them all with the sire and dam all mingled playing together and they looked very happy. We call them "farm shelties"

Then I went to see the second breeder. This time, it was a suburban home. They had converted a bedroom into a kennel (with dividers) and there were 5 female shelties. They also had two more dogs in the backyard, and one in the house. They were all barking crazy. They appeared hyper (compared to the farm shelties earlier) and jumpy. But they were prettier, with better coat colors. They also had a blue merle (looked almost like a Australian). Their house was pretty clean, even though they had 8 dogs in the house. But the breeder didn't seem to be handling the dogs well. "Quiet! I said Quiet!" is what I heard most of the time. We call them "city shelties"

I went to the third breeder. It was also in a suburban home. Similar settings - they had 8 dogs in the house, 4 shelties and 4 goldens, in separate rooms. This house, I could smell the doggy odor. They were all barking a lot (I guess because my family was in the house). Their price was bit cheaper than the other two. The breeder seem to handle the dog well though.

They all had websites with pretty pictures, telling me not to buy from a backyard breeder. They all claim to have AKC UKC papers etc, and they all looked very genuine. One of them had a purchase contract, which was like 4 pages long, and had some clause that I would NEVER sign!! The breeder says that was to protect the bloodline and maintain the goodness of her bloodline. Is this a characteristics of a "responsible" breeder?

Are they all backyard breeder? Are they all genuine responsible breeder? I just can't tell. I don't have any experience to make judgement on this.



More important question is,. can I *somewhat* expect the temperament of the puppy to be similar to their parents? How much of it is related to genetics, and how much of it is in the environment? The "farm sheltie" parents had such a nice calm gentle temperament. I understand puppies are "potentials" but would it be fair to assume that gentle parents produce gentle pups?

 

[Phebe*DD]

The term backyard breeder can mean different things to different people, but I guess for me, the defining factor would be whether or not that breeder is showing their dogs in conformation in either AKC or UKC. Reputable breeders who are working to preserve and better the breed will be showing in order to demonstrate that their dogs are acceptable breeding stock. That's the purpose of conformation competition.

IMO, backyard breeders breed their dogs because they like to raise puppies and/or to make some money on the side. Their dogs are often registered with known organizations like AKC and UKC, but could also be registered with other 'paper registries'.

Sometimes, they will tell you that the sire and dam are AKC registered but the puppies cannot be. I would run from someone like this, no matter how nice their dogs seem to be. Why? Because they've probably purchased dogs that were considered to be pet quality on a limited registration (no breeding) and then decided to just ignore their contract and breed anyway. Puppies resulting from the breeding of limited registration dogs cannot be registered. Do you really want to take the word of someone who doesn't honor a contract?

I'm curious what part of the breeder's contract you found to be objectionable?

Many people have had good luck locating a breeder by contacting their local Sheltie club. You can find your local club on the ASSA.org web site.

 

[corbinam]

The term backyard breeder can mean different things to different people, but I guess for me, the defining factor would be whether or not that breeder is showing their dogs in conformation in either AKC or UKC. Reputable breeders who are working to preserve and better the breed will be showing in order to demonstrate that their dogs are acceptable breeding stock. That's the purpose of conformation competition.

I agree pretty strongly with Margaret. My only deviation from what I quoted above would be that some breeders may not be actively showing in conformation, but showing in another sanctioned competition. I know a couple breeders that breed and compete seriously in performance events (agility, flyball, herding), but may not be actively showing in conformation.

I guess I'm just saying that don't be caught up in "actively" showing, but Margaret's right in that breeders should be breeding TOWARDS consistent conformationally sound dogs.

 

[Emmasmom]

For me, a reputable breeder is someone who spends a lot of time considering which dogs to breed and why, in order to maintain the qualities and standard of the breed, is open to letting you know why they want to breed in such a way. The breeder I got Emma and then Liam from had a puppy questionnaire that I gladly completed, so that she knew where I was coming from and what experience I had with a Sheltie. She also insisted on a home inspection, which I agreed to as well. If you are adopting a baby or a child, you go through certain steps and questionnaires. A responsible breeder feels the same about their puppies and dogs.

If the price is low compared to what other breeders are charging, I would be wary of them. If they say they will sell at a lower price with no paperwork, be wary of them. My understanding is that they cannot do this.

I would be wary of the second and third breeder you visited. You can tell how the breeder reacts with the dogs how they feel about them. If they have a kennel name, research that. Predigreelines.com is a good place to start as it will show the breeder's dog who are champions.

I too am curious about what part of the contract you wouldn't sign. I got last two shelties on a non-breeding contract, even though Liam was given to me. She is also willing to take the dogs back if at some point circumstances change and I can no longer have them. She has been a great support over the last year and a half.

 

[nbrard]

When we purchased our sheltie last December we found the breeder online by doing a search for sheltie breeders in our area. The website was extensive in the information on their dogs as well as care, breed standards and grooming of shelties. After e-mailing and speaking with them numerous times (we were in different cities), we had to fill out a four page online adoption application and later a four page purchase agreement and I think it was great. Everything in the contract was there to protect the breeder, the purchaser, the breed standard and most importantly the dog being adopted. Our dog was bought as a pet so in addition we had to provide proof of neutering before the CKC papers were transferred to our name. I wouldn't shy away from a contract because I think it shows that the breeder cares for their animals and wants them placed in the best homes.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I used to be pretty upset because I felt a lot of people said all backyard breeder are 'awful' etc etc. Depended on your definition of awful, and there are various degrees of backyard breeders in my opinion... I actually do really love the Lady where I got Toffee from, she is doing it as a hobby and to have puppies around, she has nice dogs living on a farm in the house with the family, etc etc. They are very well cared for, great companion dogs, and I knew I never wanted to show, anyhow.
However, since I have been here and I also met some good breeders in my short agility 'career' I have changed my mind!! Going forward I would definitely get one from a 'real' breeder, I am certain!!

A real breeder makes agonizing decisions about their dogs temperaments, looks and the lines they want to continue and are always looking ahead. They do it mostly for the betterment of the breed... Great breeders match up the type of dog you are looking for and for me I realize now that structure and build is so much more important than I thought back then... I want a performance dog who is also my best companion, has drive even tho I still don't care if he is too big or too small for standard, but real breeders deliver that and so much more!
I will only get my next dog from a real breeder, which is a person that shows dogs and has papers as well as advice and sound dogs!

 

[BarbV]

This is such a loaded question. At one time on the forum we were going to post some advice exactly on this topic, but life events got away with us and it was never completed.

When I talk to a breeder, my first question is: What was your motivation for breeding this litter?

The answer to this question will often help distinguish betweeb a BYB and a true breeder.

If the answer is something along the lines of: I researched the pedigree of the dam and sire and decided that mingling these lines could result in a true to form Sheltie....then yes to this breeder.

If the answer is: I thought I had a pretty cute dog and thought that I might breed her and see what happens...then you have a BYB.

I know these are extremes, but I hope you understand the logic behind the question.

One other thing to look at is the pedigree behind the dog. Neither of my dogs are show dogs, but their pedigrees are solid

Check out this web site. Type in the dam/sire in the search. If they are not listed, then you probably have your answer.

http://www.pedigreelines.com/dog/show/name/cedar-sunset's-highland-hunter

Now on the flip side: A BYB does not necessarily mean a bad dog. There are lots of BYB's that breed with the best of intentions. And many dogs on this froum come from BYB's and are wonderful dogs. They may not be true to form, but are wonderful companions.

It's a tough call.

Best wishes to you in your search

 

[tofu pup]

I think there are some great comments here!

I'll pitch in my two cents. First, here's where I'm coming from: I'm a third-generation dog fancier (great-aunt and -uncle had show and racing Siberians) and I literally grew up "in Shelties". My mother made the decision over twenty years ago to dedicate herself to breeding Shelties, and I've been along for the ride ever since. Our focus is AKC conformation, and we go to a lot of shows, including our national specialty (we did a whole thread on this year's a few weeks ago!).

Every litter that we produce is the product of years of planning and forethought - a level of effort and consideration that goes back for generations and generations of Shelties. Every litter, every dog means something: every individual Sheltie in our breeding program is part of a great unbroken chain that stretches into the past and the future. We breed because we're looking to produce our next great show dog, and the next generation of stud dogs and brood bitches to carry our Sheltie family forward. We breed to produce beautiful, balanced, good-to-live with dogs who fit the Sheltie Standard.

Naturally, I'm biased... but I think it's best to support breeders who are breeding to the Standard and to a goal (be that conformation or performance). (n.b. that "breeding to the Standard" means much more than just breeding dogs who happen to both be AKC-registered.) Pet-quality puppies will, by definition, not have "made the grade" for show or breeding, but they should look and act like Shelties. Bottom line: a goal-oriented breeding program (not breeding just to make more dogs) is what I look for.

In the end, you make the choice that you're going to make, and you'll never love your new puppy the less for where it came from. But since you asked - I answered!

By the way, I too am very curious about the objectionable clause in the breeder's contract.

 

[tofu pup]

More important question is,. can I *somewhat* expect the temperament of the puppy to be similar to their parents? How much of it is related to genetics, and how much of it is in the environment? The "farm sheltie" parents had such a nice calm gentle temperament. I understand puppies are "potentials" but would it be fair to assume that gentle parents produce gentle pups?

I realized that I didn't address this at all!

Yes, you can generally expect the temperaments to be hereditary. You can do a lot to influence the eventual temperament of your puppy through socialization etc., but you want to stack the deck in your favor and choose a pup from calm, sensible parents.

HOWEVER.

I think I see where you're going here... the "farm Shelties" seemed calm and balanced, and the "city Shelties" seemed hyper and edgy. Means those "city Sheltie" babies will be neurotic, right?

Maybe. But think about the environments you're describing... if you take seven Shelties (bred to work all day and use their voices) and keep them in a suburban backyard and bedroom, you're going to eventually have some very wound-up little dogs. (Keep in mind that Shelties in groups tend to be very sensitive to each other, so even if one dog is a little barky/nervous, in a tight space they can all get going.) The adage that "a tired dog is a happy dog" is absolutely true. Shelties especially need to have time to stretch their legs and run full-out - sure, there are couch potatoes and elderly dogs who might be fine being on the sofa all day, but young, breeding-age Shelties are most likely going to be happiest (and most calm) when they have space to run. I suspect that the "farm Shelties" had this, where the "city Shelties" did not. Just something to keep in mind when comparing the two...

I'm also going to come out and say that I'm always a wee bit suspicious when a breeder has both the sire and the dam on the premises. When you have a bitch to breed, you have so, so many options in terms of a stud dog - especially in this day and age of chilled semen! You have so many dogs to choose from, dogs from all over the continent, when you're trying to find the perfect match for your bitch... how likely is it that the dog who happens to be in your own yard is The One who is the very best fit for her? Breeding to one's own dog suggests that the breeder didn't put as much thought (or effort) into the pairing as he or she might have.

However, this is just a generalization. If the dog in your backyard is Mr. Big Showdog or Mr. Fabulous Agility Dog (or both in one!) and a good genetic fit for your bitch, then it makes perfect sense to breed the two. This is where Barb's suggestion to ask "Why did you choose to pair these particular dogs?" comes in handy. If the breeder starts getting excited and talking about pedigrees and generations and how this is the litter she's been waiting to breed for years, whoo-hoo! But if she doesn't really have an answer... well, that's a BYB flag for me. I'm sure her dogs receive excellent, loving care, and she genuinely has good intentions, but the effort into breeding selectively isn't there.

 

[Lightplum]

This is where Barb's suggestion to ask "Why did you choose to pair these particular dogs?" comes in handy. If the breeder starts getting excited and talking about pedigrees and generations and how this is the litter she's been waiting to breed for years, whoo-hoo! But if she doesn't really have an answer... well, that's a BYB flag for me. I'm sure her dogs receive excellent, loving care, and she genuinely has good intentions, but the effort into breeding selectively isn't there.

That is my favorite question to be asked!! I love it so much and could talk about it till the potnetinal puppy owners eyes begin to glaze over and than I remember the little voice in the back of my head telling me to rein myself in

I think everyone who chimed in brought up some really great points on what to look for and to steer clear of. To me (and im putting on my flame proof undies here) registry in the end means absolutely nothing! Ive come across more BYB breeders who advertise AKC registered puppies that are so far from the standard you'd swear they were dingos not shelties, in the end I guess what im saying is AKC registered puppies are not the green light signifying everything is kosher with the breeder. Check them out and see if they do compete in any events with their dogs, be it Conformation, agility, obedience..etc.

I also like to see CH's in that pedigree multiple and not just one or two in the 4 generation pedigree. Personally I'd like to see the sire a CH, there is really no reason if they are on the up and up to not have one parent be a CH, and I say sire since the window of showing opportunity for the dam to be in coat and shown is usually rather short, but can be done, but it usually takes longer and they take time out for motherhood, where the sires can keep on going