Club Practice: Do I do the DW?

Follow-up

So, I practiced with Koji on our board, but outdoors near the training site. At first, it was BAD BAD BAD. But then, it got better. Then I noticed he tends to stand off to the corner and not straight, and I was making sure I was running straight, but okay, may need to fix that now. So, I made sure that he was okay outdoors. It was iffy. I stopped, then went back to our little board (BUSY practice day, maybe 20+ people). He was probably about 75-80%. The faster I went, the more his back end would fall off or completely blow it. I was using an NRM and as expected, being outdoors, at practice, he barely even cared. After a few short sessions of that, he was doing great. I'd say about 90-95%. Barely missed it.

Then............my first run of the day. Yikes! He totally broke his stay at the start line. BUT, I put him back and he stayed everywhere for the rest of the day. Read on for what I'm talking about.

The course was uber hard. I guess at the J. Crank seminar earlier in the month, the course builder chose to combine all the pieces she had used. Yikes! REALLY hard in some places. I mean, 3 jumps straight, then a 180, to a 270 to a 180. WTH!!! lol Anyhow.

So, we took off. OMG, his DW contacts. What? What are those? That's what Koji said. His first by-pass, boing. Second pass. Boing! Third pass I took it slower. Remember, I haven't added a cue yet, so I was hoping to add it while he was on his DW. But since he was failing so badly, I chose not to. On the third pass, I kinda walked behind him, so he stopped in a 4-on and I waited him out. Then he got into a 2o2o and I clicked said YAY!!! And gave him a ton of treats. THEN I LED OUT!! Led out I say!!! To the tunnel. Whoa. Awesome!!!!

Around and around we went to the teeter. Boing. Nope. Do it again. Boing. Nope, once more. He stayed on, then moved into a 2o2o. Uh-oh, wasn't expecting that and kinda don't want it. Hmmm.....will have to make a quick decision later about what I want. Sadly, he moved off of the teeter and so I put him in a sit to wait for me. I led out again. Wow!!!

To the table. One of the issues I've been having everywhere is him not staying so I can lead out. That includes the table. I put him in a down. And although I didn't need to lead out since the next obstacle was tunnel that wrapped the table....I did anyways. Led out and released him and THEN shot him through the tunnel. I think he was confused. LOL. And onto the DW again.

This time, I decided to just go slow. I let him run up, go across, and I was walking so he got in front of me. I figured, I'd make sure he was successful. He stopped in a 4-on again, and as I was approaching, he got into a 2o2o, I clicked and kept walking past him. Then went back to treat. THEN!!! Another lead out. OMG. My baby is STAYING PUT!! Forget contacts, he's staying. I led out and released.

Wow. I was so happy. The hardest parts of the course was jumps. We handled them beautifully!!!! The contacts weren't so hot, but his stays were awesome!!! I didn't expect a lot of the contacts, only a chance to train. I mean, we've been training for 3.5 weeks. Granted, a 1yo dog there has better 2o2o than us, but it's okay.

I am so very happy with his performance this weekend. I don't think I'll do a drop in on my class prior to my JWW trial in two weeks. Need to do more outdoor DW training though. May have to buy a longer board (or borrow one) so he learns to stop on a higher incline. Cuz obviously, he wasn't stopping on anything unless I was standing next to him and I don't want that at all. I want to be able to run out, into position and release, so as not to lose a lot of time. I don't expect to be competitive, but sheesh, I'd like to make time. lol.

Koji was doing a bit of creeping though. Ugh! I wish there weren't so many people there. There was no time really to practice the DW alone. Not even to get him up on there. Oh, there were two times I had to pick him up and place him on the DW. That's when he really crept, but also when he'd do the 2o2o. The only other successful time was when we both went slowly.

Baby steps.

I probably should've put a target plate down, but I'm trying to stay away from it as when it's not there, Koji will sniff a lot trying to figure out why it's not there and by that, I mean he gets off the board and looks for it. I'm thinking it'd be faster with it. But for now, I'm trying w/o so he doesn't go looking for it. I used the Manners Minders for awhile and that was totally disastrous. He'd get off the board to go paw at the thing to make it give him more food. I think he's a bit too food motivated and forgets everything else when food is in front of him. lol.

I'm overall happy with yesterday's training though. He didn't get his contacts well at all, but dang, he stayed perfectly all day (okay, except for the first one). Now, how can I practice that in my trial? He'll probably break his first one.
 
Dog Walk

Koji was doing a bit of creeping though. Ugh! I wish there weren't so many people there. There was no time really to practice the DW alone. Not even to get him up on there. Oh, there were two times I had to pick him up and place him on the DW. That's when he really crept, but also when he'd do the 2o2o. The only other successful time was when we both went slowly.



Why are you putting him back on the board?Putting him back on is the same as allowing him to get on by himslf and it leads to the creeping.To me and this is JMO you are rushing him.
 
I sort of agree with Sharon on this one...I wouldn't put him on a full sized contact of any kind unless you can go at normal/full speed. If you start on full-sized equipment but rely on your speed being slow to cue him into position, he'll not be able to do it independently (if you're behind, ahead, running to catch up, etc...) and you'll get a creep. If you're able to get a 2o2o on the board with you "running" (I know you're mostly inside), it's time to move the board up a bit, or to get on the real DW and lower it and just put him halfway down the down side. Until you can run I wouldn't put him back on the big obstacles.

I just know from my experience that this doesn't work. We were getting a good running contact with Bentley but only when we slowed down and walked him to the end. As soon as we were in a trial or he got excited, or we weren't there, or we got too excited or hurried to get into position we got NOTHING.

I think you want to emphasize speed and confidence as he moves into position, so keep setting him up to be successful and moving him up slowly as he gets a 2o2o with a high rate of success. If you're having to wait him out at all (he's in a 4-on) I think you either need to take a step back, or give him a temporary visual aid.

I don't think target plates are all bad if you are constantly phasing them out. We make it a point to start with a percentage, like maybe 75% of the time we use a target plate, then for the fourth time, we remove it, and jackpot. Then maybe the next few sessions the target plate appears 50% of the time, and 25% of the time there is a treat on the ground (but no target), then the other 25% there's nothing, but we go back and reward. It's a continuous thing, if that makes sense.

Edit: Oops! Forgot to talk about the good. I'm really happy to hear that you're seeing a lot of improvements on his stay/wait. That's awesome! It's so nice to be able to take a second to breathe and set up for the upcoming sequence. Keep it up!
 
I also don't want to come across too negative, because I know how hard you are working and you are definitely seeing some improvement, and that's awesome. Retraining contacts is frustrating, grueling, obnoxious and tiresome...so staying with it and seeing change is an awesome thing. Just wanted to share a bit of my experience as to what has worked and not worked for us.

Everyone does things differently, and I'm certainly not saying that I know better than anyone else (in fact, Bentley still isn't on the full sized DW yet!)
 
Well, the difficult part is that I don't have access to a DW of any sort. So it's going to be hard to go from board to full DW w/o some sort of either backchaining or retraining.

Everyone suggested I go and do the DW, even though I had no cue set yet, had no experience with being outside, etc. So basically, I shouldn't have listened to anyone. Maybe I need to back off of the boards too. lol. I figured I'd see where we're at though and now I know. He's nowhere near ready for the DW yet. Unless I can train on it daily or weekly, alone.

Also, even if I get a longer board, I'm still going to have to set Koji up at the top, there won't be anything to run across, etc. So I'm not sure what the difference is. I'm still backchaining and it seems like you and Sharon agree that backchaining causes creeping.

Recall that Koji was trained a 4-on, so basically, if he stops there, he thinks he's doing it right. He hasn't generalized the plank to the full DW yet, obviously. I think if I could use the DW for an hour, we'd be good. I just need to get him to generalize the plank to the DW. Daisy suggested I wait him out at the 4-on, until he goes into the 2o2o THEN click and reward heavily. It doesn't matter where I'm standing, and in fact, she suggested I not stand near him even if I'm waiting him out. So, that conflicts with what you're stating. I know, I know, we all train differently.

I'd also like to add that when I said I was going "slow", I don't mean I was babysitting Koji. While he ran/trotted across, I was walking. So, I was in front of him, he passed me by, as he got into position, I passed him by, then stopped about 6ft past and looked at him and waited him out. I rarely, if ever stop so he'll stop. And if I do, trust me, next time, I won't. I did that with his 4-on because that's what I was taught. And we all know how that turns out. Even my current trainer will have me put Koji back on if he blows his contacts. Sigh. Who's right? Who's wrong? I have had trainers have me stop at the end, so he'll stop and I can treat him. Bad, right?

So, here's the question. If he does a full DW and blows his contact what do you do? How do you handle that? Or do you expect your dog to go from a plank to a full DW and generalize it?

At home, right now, I put him near the end (about 1-2 feet away depending on how far he got), put him in a sit and walk away. As from what I read, that's how you handle it because he blew his stay, not the 2o2o. That's what I did yesterday every time he blew it. I wouldn't put him back into a 2o2o position, or anything near that. The two times I put him on the DW on the slope part, was after he blew it, was put into a stay, and then released.

I dunno. IMHO, what I'm doing works at home. It worked outside at training when I started him on my plank and he was totally blowing things. I believe all that he learned on the plank he totally left behind the second he got to run across the DW. If I could use a DW for like an hour, I could probably get it to the point where we're at on his plank. He just needs to generalize the plank a bit, and I didn't have time to get there.

I'll have to make some calls to see if I can use/rent a DW somewhere to train. Obviously, he won't be generalizing his plank work to a full DW. He reverted to his old 4-on creeping as soon as we got back on there. But then again, as soon as I went to a angled board, he did the same thing for my first 15 min session. By the second session, he remembered what he was supposed to do. Speed is the hard thing for him, that's when we need the full DW so he can learn to slow down (not creep).

So, I do agree that he's not ready for a full DW, but in that same sentence, I don't think I had enough time to really get him acclimated so he'd generalize the DW from the plank. If I could have done that, I think he would've been more successful. Hmm...lesson learned.
 
we asked SG what shall we have agility equipment wise to be ready for contact course she is going to offer. Here is what SG replied
"However 75% of the course will not require any contact equipment and if you had access to a seesaw then 90% of it would be without any other equipment. This is exactly how I train my own dogs on contacts -- ie without contacts!"
 
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I agree with Sharon and Ashley. You are rushing. You will not ever get the results you want if you keep asking for the entire dogwalk with this behavior that is still in progress before he is ready. If it were me, and I wanted a fast reliable contact, I would not be asking him to do the whole dogwalk right now. I would stick to the board until it is pretty much 100%. Just because you are doing run thrus does not mean you have to do the dogwalk. You have potentially set yourself back in training.
I've been in horses for a long, long time, as well as training dogs for a couple. One really bad session can undo a lot of otherwise really good work.
You need to step back and decide what you want, and stick to it. You can't be wishy washy about it. If you want a fast reliable contact that your dog truly understands, you need to take it slow, stop trialing in standard, and stop doing the full dogwalk entirely. No ifs ands or buts. No excuses made. If you are okay with a dog who doesn't understand his job and creeps down contacts, and wish to continue to be unhappy with what he is doing, and continue to blow runs, keep it up. I'm sorry but it can't be both ways. You will never get the results you want the way you are doing things. Why were you even asking for him to do the whole thing? Remember, dogs don't generalize well. He isn't going to equate 2o2o on the board to 2o2o on the dogwalk yet, especially not when criteria has never been really clear.
 
Banging head against a wall.

You ALL do realize you said to go forth right? Why not, give it a try. OMG!

Okay, I'm sorry, I am backing out of this thread and will no longer post about Koji's DW. I appreciate and always reflect on any feedback you, as a group, gives me. I had asked if I should do the DW as I wasn't sure. I knew it could possibly be too soon, but you guys gave me confidence and suggested I should give it a go. And now you're reprimanding me for going too fast? You all knew I had only been training for a short time, that I didn't even have a cue, yet you all said "yes, give it a go". And I did. And I now know where I stand with Koji's DW. End of story.

I have since learned my lesson. Quit asking if I'm unsure. That alone is my answer. If I'm not sure about Koji's DW, don't ask the board, just don't do it. Sometimes I question myself since I've never done agility before, but I have since learned I need to trust myself and what I see with Koji day in and day out.

Again, thanks for all the advice. I'll post about our DW when it's solid in trials. Until then, you can read about all the other craziness with Koji.
 
I never posted until now. I never said do the dogwalk. I am in the same boat with contacts on my young dog, but I want a good long term contact, and am sticking to my plan. The only difference is I'm working a running, and you're doing a 2o2o... but both are trained behaviors who have to be worked hard, and proofed to be successful.
My Ember is a running contact work in progress. She does not do dogwalks at our weekly classes, or my weekly field rental. I am currently only running her in jumpers at trials. She only works a lowered dogwalk when I go to the field by my house to work specifically on her contact where I am asking for the criteria I expect at this point in her training (running using the trkman method). The reason is that I do not wish to accept crappy, incorrect contact performances. She will not do a full height contact until all of the training started from a board and worked up to a full height dogwalk with criteria met 100% (hitting the contact at a run, not jumping, being able to work straight and independently regardless of if I am ahead, behind, turning hard, accelerating, decelerating, front crossing, rear crossing) at each step. Sure, we could probably get a few Qs out of sheer luck, but that's not what I want. I want a dog who I don't have to worry about contacts on... who is going to do them accurately regardless, and has the confidence to do them because she fully gets it.
I'm sorry if I have come across harsh, but it is frustrating to sit here and read that you have a plan, and are progressing, and then throw it all away in order to do the contacts prematurely. Everyone *wants* you to succeed. You've just got to make your mind up to do it and do it right... regardless of what anyone else says. Make your plan and stick to it.
 
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