color questions

[Anna]

Hi Anna - actually, Chinook is a blue merle! His sire was a blue merle and dam is a tri. The grandparents and great grandparents are not sables either! I know, I've had many breeders look at him. His colour is unique to say the least, but he is a blue merle. There is not much sable in his pedigree at all. He is just different.

Oh, I thought that sable-merle. Ok, my mistake So I first time saw the blue-merle with so much rustiness, but I still think that Chinook is really very cute


Hmm in my opinion purebred sheltie is sheltie with pedigree/registered ancestry.
You can get the sheltie and socialize, trainig him to dog sport competition (i.e. dogfrisbee or agility) but do not necessarily need to breed.
In my opinion is better to get a next sheltie than breeding unregistered/without a pedigree, spayed and training for sports. But you must looking pupies from healthy tested (i.e. HD) parents with stable psichic, and choose puppy which have stable psychic too, puppy, who was staring at you like a picture that you observed, is a calm, balanced - so easy to train

 

[BarbV]

OK - I'm going to try one more time on this, then give it up as a discussion point.

In the purest form, you can only call a dog a purebred if you can trace the pedigree. That means registration and tracking through, AKC, CKC, UKC (as in United Kingdom), etc. Without the ability to trace, you have no way of knowing if another breed got mixed in there along the way.

So, if you can't trace the pedigree and don't know if there might be a mix there somewhere, can you rightfully call the dog a "Sheltie", even if it looks and acts just like one? Is it enough for people to know that buying an unregistered pup means there might be some question? Or should they be categorized differently, such "Sheltie-type" or "Sheltie-factored"????

btw - I am no way implying that only registered pups are quality pups! You can have puppy mills with registered dogs; and wonderful hobby breeders with no registrations raising wonderfully bred and socialized animals.

 

[Smudge]

You can have puppy mills with registered dogs; and wonderful hobby breeders with no registrations raising wonderfully bred and socialized animals.

Ain't that the truth! Just because a dog has AKC or any other registration papers does not mean that it is in good health and that the "breeder" is a good person. PLEASE make sure you're buying from a good person! Make sure they test their dogs!

 

[Lovely]

Barb, I'll take this one up!

First off, I agree that there are wonderful BYBs and horrible breeders. Registration is a good sign, but doesn't necessarily mean quality of socialization, health, etc.

But - it is necessary to be able to call a dog that breed. With a breed like a Sheltie, there could easily be a Collie or Border Collie as a grandparent (or earlier) and you might not know it! You may think your babe is just oversized. It is too early in the breed history for them to be 100% distinguishable by looks (which goes for many, many breeds). It could have been done for a merling gene in a Border or maybe an accident with a Collie. And when the pups came out, the breeders (accidental or not) thought "Well, who can really tell?"

There are a few breeds that I think would be very distinguishable if not purebred, but after a generation or so, even those incongruities could fall aside. Say a breeder of Papillons wants the rare Phalene (ears down). They could mix in a little King Charles Spaniel (as Paps are really Continental Toy Spaniels, so very similar) for the ears. And a few generations of more Paps might give dogs who look very much like Phalenes, but in reality aren't. I hope there aren't people out there who would do this (and if they were this diabolical, I'm sure they would just claim another Pap bred with their bitch to maintain the paper trail).

Which brings me to my final point, the papers may not be accurate. Getting dogs registered shows a certain amount of maturity on the part of the breeder, but if your next door neighbor's Fido got loose to get after Fifi, the match-up could result in offspring that aren't from the stud you shelled out good money for - so do you take the hit in your pocket or fudge the details?

I'm not a breeder. I don't know all the details of genetics and mating and every other detail they have to worry about, these are just semi-educated guesses.

 

[Smudge]

I think you're going to have to give it up, Barb. Everybody agrees with you. Don't you hate it when that happens?

I think if you are getting a dog from a breeder then that breeder (if they are a decent person! ) is going to want to prove that their sheltie is really a sheltie. Concerning shelters and rescues then it wouldn't be a big deal to me. Buying from a breeder, yes. Rescue and shelters no.

 

[Aztec]

Someone must like to argue (Don't worry...I do too!)

I think it depends on the situation. If you are showing dogs (which is basically presenting them with breeding in mind) you should only have registered dogs, of proven heritage. If you have a unregistered pet sheltie, that looks and behaves like a sheltie - call it a sheltie.

How many people are actually going to care unless they are breeding them? I want a sheltie because of their temperment and looks, and if I am not showing, I really don't care if there was a border collie in his line 8 generations ago. I would still call him a sheltie... (To be clear, once again, I would want to know that my dog was 100% purebred and perfect if he was to show in conformation!)

Same point with rescues and shelters. If I adopted a dog that was in every way seemingly sheltie, that is what I would call him even though the parentage is unknown. I have no idea whatsoever what Laika is...but I call her a border collie mix, because that is what she looks like to me.

 

[granite]

Walks like a duck quacks like a duck...its a duck.

Looks like a sheltie, acts like a sheltie...its a sheltie.
Don't call it purebred unless you have the registration papers. Don't assume it because the breeder says "well, I could get the papers but I didn't so they're purebred but not registered AKC." Trust me, the AKC registration is not difficult or expensive to do! So if there are no registration papers THEN THEY ARE REALLY LAZY OR THEY CAN"T GET THE REGISTRATION.

Example: My Indy is a purebred sheltie with LIMITED registration from the AKC. If I had not had him neutered but instead decided to breed him to one of my females that do have registration; the pups COULD NOT be registered through the AKC. Even though they are "pure" sheltie...they are not eligible for registration.

Example: someone steals your purebred sheltie and breeds it. They are not the registered owners of the dog, and so can't register the puppies.

Example: Owner of several registered dogs has a female go into heat and isn't careful, and so isn't sure of the parentage of the pups. The pups LOOK like shelties; so they decide to sell the pups as shelties but without papers.

OK, I'll give it up now on the "is it a sheltie?" question.
The papers don't guarantee that the pup is healthy or wise or athletic or in perfect conformation. They are a contract stating that the pup is from the registered bloodline as shown on their papers.
I talk extensively to folks who are considering adopting one of my pups. I tell them again and again that I am raising a line of companion shelties that should show strong skills in jumping/agility and that are well oriented to living in the home with a family. I talk with the folks a LOT to decide if I can trust that they will indeed keep my pup as a member of their household, and not tie them out back. I try to determine that they are cognizant of the responsibilities (and messes) of housebreaking a puppy. I emphasize to them that it is not expected that any of my pups would be competitive in a show ring.

 

[BarbV]

Which brings me to my final point, the papers may not be accurate. Getting dogs registered shows a certain amount of maturity on the part of the breeder, but if your next door neighbor's Fido got loose to get after Fifi, the match-up could result in offspring that aren't from the stud you shelled out good money for - so do you take the hit in your pocket or fudge the details?

.

That's what happened exactly to my family! When I was growing up, we had a purebred, registered Sheltie, Callie.

My dad was convinced that he wanted a least one litter out of her (and was interested in showing as well - there's a thread in here somewhere of my dad and his one attempt at showing - too funny!)

Anyway, Callie's in heat, dad shell's out the big bucks to get her studded, pregnancy takes and we all wait with bated breaths to see the beautiful Sheltie pups born. Dad is ecstatic! The start of a new line! The day finally arrives.....except what comes out AIN'T SHELTIES!!!! Seems another dog got to her first (must have jumped the fence!) Poor Dad!

btw - Callie never got bred again! That was the end of their dream!

 

[spazzydog]

this is not me but another reason i would suspect there are purebred shelties with no regestration......how bout this spay / neuter contract everyone keeps talking about,I'd assume you wouldnt get papers till you prove that they're altered.....If you aren't showing and can make $300-500 / pup for companion pups.......who needs papers

 

[Ania]

this is not me but another reason i would suspect there are purebred shelties with no regestration......how bout this spay / neuter contract everyone keeps talking about,I'd assume you wouldnt get papers till you prove that they're altered.....If you aren't showing and can make $300-500 / pup for companion pups.......who needs papers

Well here's the thing. I still don't have Chinook's papers because I did not send proof to her that he is in fact neutered (I am still upset with her over his surgery) BUT according to the CKC she HAS to send me the papers within 6 months! or if I complain, it is a rather large fine for her. PLUS, if you ever want to do any CKC sanctioned events like agility, obedience, rally-o, herding etc. you have to have the papers!