Pondering the liver

Thank you for your post. I really feel lke there is a pattern to what is happening with the liver, galbladder, and pancreas.

It's got to be related to protein or fish or fats or ? -- however, if the other breeds are not having trouble at all, then it must be genetic and as a breed management protoco should be initiated to help prevent stress on the organs.

I threw it open to the GSD board yesterday to see if there is a problem in GSD's -- since I have one and am a member of that board. It's a really really active board so I am hopeful to hear some theories to investigate.
 
Mom2Melli said:
Thank you for your post. I really feel lke there is a pattern to what is happening with the liver, galbladder, and pancreas.

It's got to be related to protein or fish or fats or ? -- however, if the other breeds are not having trouble at all, then it must be genetic and as a breed management protoco should be initiated to help prevent stress on the organs.

I threw it open to the GSD board yesterday to see if there is a problem in GSD's -- since I have one and am a member of that board. It's a really really active board so I am hopeful to hear some theories to investigate.
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Will be real interested in that 411 from the GSD board. Thanks for taking the time and trouble on behalf of us all.

Kate
 
Taking a cleansing breathe here. There is so much confusing and contradicting information out there regarding this topic.

The first thing I want to suggest is that diet does not CAUSE most of these conditions (liver, pancreatitis, gallbladder, hypopthyroid, etc.). These diseases are mostly congenital (with exception like heptatitis, lyme disease, etc. These conditions are caused by outside factors, not related to diet at all, but not necessarily congenital)

However diet DOES go a long way in helping to control these conditions. And the wrong diet can also make these conditions worse. Vaccinations can also make it worse, but I don't believe are the cause.

All three of these diseases have similar symptoms and in diagnosing a failing dog, a vet will often test for all 3 (or should!)

I won't go into the long and painful history of Bacca, but clearly he was suffering from a liver malfunction or perhaps a gallbladder, or both.

the bottom line for him was surgery with no guarantees, or a controlled diet with meds. I opted for no. 2. No. 2 meant a low protein diet.....period.

Unfortunately, it was not to be. The liver toxins took over his brain and he finally went into seizure. In hindsight, would I have done the surgery? I don't know.

My point is only that we have to stop blaming diet....it can make it worse, but is not the root cause of these severe illnesses.
 
I guess the word "cause" is too strong. "Trigger" or "worsen" an inherent tendency is enough. I think we are doing sometime that may not cause this but it may be causing a burden and stress on those areas and they blow.

What ways of management lessen the stressors on those areas to help the dogs live the longest the healthiest?

I would consider that a benefit to everyone if we had a protocol to support liver, pancreas, and gallbladder health. I think this thread as lots of the answers to this scattered throughout in ways of vaccination, protein, anti-inflammatory supplementation, medication, weight control, etc.

Flip it from asking what is "causing unhealth" to what can "support health", if you will.

As to the GSD boards, all negatory so far. No issues over there, no theories. But I now remember they are such a harsh and serious group. Reading their posts scares me and my little dog too!
 
Ann said:
Thanks for the good wishes. We had Pixie's bloodwork done which was normal on all counts except for one thing: her triglicerides were high. My vet said there is an issue most common to schnauzers that causes serious problems from high triglicerides (too much fat in her blood) but not usually seen in Shelties.

I've been feeding her a duck-based food because of her history with seizures but since duck is a fatty food, I'm going to switch her to Fromm Whitefish and Potato which is 11 percent fat vs. 15. She's also been getting a half dose of krill oil and coconut oil to help her joints. I'm eliminating the coconut oil.

We don't know if this was the cause of the seizure or whether it was just her history recurring. Unfortunately, epilepsy in dogs is 8 parts guessing game and 2 parts medicine. So I'll watch her and hold my breath and we'll see what happens. She hasn't had any more seizures since last week so I'm hopeful. :fl

Sending good thoughts for Harper's results, Kate! Please keep us posted.
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trini gilmore; said:
Ann, our little sable boy, Simba, started having focal seizures when he was approx. 14 months old. Within a few months he was put on anti-seizure meds, but little improvement. We had an MRI done on his brain to make sure no tumors or lesions...all normal. Bloodwork showed slightly elevated levels of triglicerides but not to the point of raising alarm. Then 2 years ago his seizure activity suddenly escalated with psycho motor seizures that lasted over an hour per incident and were happening a couple of times per week...very scary.

New bloodwork put his triglicerides literally off the chart. Simba was at a healthy weight and had been getting Wellness fish and sweet potato as his diet...he also gets yearly bloodwork...so this elevation came on fast. Our vet was very suspicious that the escalation in his seizure activity, both in type/intensity and in duration, might be tied to the extremely high fat in his blood. He put Simba on Hill's R/D which is only 6% fat...it took a few months but the prolonged psychomotor seizures have now been gone for well over a year and his mini focal seizures have almost completely disappeared (he used to have them multiple times daily). I suspect Simba may need to stay on a very low fat food for the rest of his life. Three months ago we stopped all anti-seizure meds and so far he is doing really well.

Simba is our third sheltie with seizures...but the first where the seizure activity looks like it *may* have been tied to fat in the blood.

I hope your little Pixie will respond well to the lower fat diet. Seizures are so emotionally hard to see in a little dog you love.
Trini
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I had a similar problem with Toby, only less severe it seems as he's never suffered from seizures or confusion of any kind. Toby turned 5 this week.

A little over a year ago Toby suddenly packed on what seemed to be a lot of weight in a short time. He was otherwise acting pretty normal, except maybe a little lazier than usual.

I had my vet do blood work, expecting that he'd developed a thyroid condition. His thyroid levels came back normal, but his triglycerides where more than double what they should have been and his cholesterol was also high. My vet told me that this can indicate liver problems, except that his liver function was well within the normal ranges, not even slightly elevated.

My vet said she suspected one of two things, that either it had to do with the anxiety medication Toby takes (Fluoxetine/Prozac) or that it could be a genetic predisposition that she's seen in some dogs. Since Toby came from a puppy mill originally, I wouldn't be surprised.

I took Toby off of Acana dog food and switched him to lower protein foods Go! - Sensitivity and Shine Salmon and Now Senior, which are much lower in fat and protein. I also started giving Toby a liver supplement daily because of his medication.

Toby lost all of the weight and 6-8 months later his blood work all came back well within the normal ranges for everything. Lately I've been giving him Now Adult, which is higher in protein and fat but lower than whats in Acana. So far he seems to be doing well and hasn't gained any crazy weight. I'll continue the liver supplement probably for the rest of his life, or at least as long as he takes anxiety medication.

I don't know if this was a sign of problems to come when he's older, but so far he's doing well so I hope this is the end of things... :fl
 
Some really good examples here as to how to manage these conditions with diet and meds.

It really depends on the severity. Sometimes, surgery may be the only answer. I struggled with this for months. I opted not. In order to do surgery they wanted another 1,000 for further testing, and then 5,000 for the surgery itself. With no guarantees.

In hindsight, I should have gone more aggressive and gone for an even lower protein choice or home cooked. That is my mea culpa.

Ontario Sheltie.....I moved Bacca to Now senior as well and ultimately it did not work for him. And then to Blue senior with even lower protein and fat. The toxins still went to his brain causing his final seizures.

All to say.....yeah, I would do differently. Maybe home cooked.
 
BarbV said:
Ontario Sheltie.....I moved Bacca to Now senior as well and ultimately it did not work for him. And then to Blue senior with even lower protein and fat. The toxins still went to his brain causing his final seizures.

All to say.....yeah, I would do differently. Maybe home cooked.
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I'm fairly certain that I tried it on your suggestion. I'm so sorry that it didn't help for Bacca but I'd like to think that you played a part in helping Toby to get well.

I know that doesn't touch the hearache you feel for Bacca, but try to take comfort in knowing that posting all of your experiences with Bacca on the forums might help other shelties with issues to get the treatments they need and may also save their lives. :hugs
 
OntarioSheltie said:
I'm fairly certain that I tried it on your suggestion. I'm so sorry that it didn't help for Bacca but I'd like to think that you played a part in helping Toby to get well.

I know that doesn't touch the hearache you feel for Bacca, but try to take comfort in knowing that posting all of your experiences with Bacca on the forums might help other shelties with issues to get the treatments they need and may also save their lives. :hugs
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That is super kind! I wish that I could have done more
and constantly second guess myself.
 
Barb, very well said. I agree that we can't blame the diet for these issues, but it can exacerbate a current issue.

I am so sorry about Bacca and I know exactly how you feel. I beat myself up regularly for everything that happened to Hollie. We also could have done surgery but she was almost 14, already in liver failure. And at a cost of up to 10,000$ at a university hospital (no local vet would touch her) we just couldn't put her through that, if she even would have survived the surgery. So we tried treating her medically and force feeding her, and unfortunately she just lost her will to continue. Being a nurse I know the symptoms of GB disease and Hollie had all the signs for many years. I get so mad at myself for not pushing the issue when she was well enough for surgery, or other treatment. But then I just remind myself hoe very lucky we were to have her in out lives for those 13 years, and if this wouldn't happen we would have never found our crazy Shelby dog!
 
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