scared/hiding six month old male, sheltin

[sheltin]

possibly abused sheltin...

Part of me thinks this guy was hit or yelled at.
After he messed on our bed he hid in his safe spot in our room at the foot of our bed and he looked at the bed and at me. I'm pretty sure he knew he did the wrong thing but wasn't sure if he was gonna get scalded for it.
I simply walked between he and the bed in front of him without looking at him, cleaned the mess as he watched, then I brought him to his kennel without saying as word to him or looking at him.
He went into his kennel on his own.
the next time he pottied on his pup pad.

seems like progress to me.

I think not saying anything to him was the best way to handle that considering his already scared behavior.

steve

 

[Toffee's Mom]

Part of me thinks this guy was hit or yelled at.
After he messed on our bed he hid in his safe spot in our room at the foot of our bed and he looked at the bed and at me. I'm pretty sure he knew he did the wrong thing but wasn't sure if he was gonna get scalded for it.
I simply walked between he and the bed in front of him without looking at him, cleaned the mess as he watched, then I brought him to his kennel without saying as word to him or looking at him.
He went into his kennel on his own.
the next time he pottied on his pup pad.

seems like progress to me.

I think not saying anything to him was the best way to handle that considering his already scared behavior.

steve

Absolutely
the less talk the better
Ignoring bad behaviour is very important at this juncture. There is no trust yet, where a holler wouldn't cause damage... and he'd shut down again even more... No voice is the best right now

 

[Silaria]

I've been following this thread and it sounds like you are doing everything you can to help build Sheltin's confidence. 6 months old and little to no interaction with humans ... definitely not something that is going to change quickly. The patience you and Barbi are showing this little guy will be rewarded.

What treats have you tried? Usually the super high value treats are things like Chicken and Hotdogs. Sure, they will eat those and anything if you put it out and leave it but its treats like those that they are more likely to want to take out of your hand.

Perhaps you can try putting some boiled chicken a few feet away from you and slowly move it closer. Work sideways to him instead of facing him, it may seem less threatening to him. Don't look at him or say anything to him until he takes the treat. Mark the taking of a treat with a yes and gently toss another piece to him.

As he gets within arms rearch, I like the idea of putting the treat on the back of your hand before your open palm.

Stay with this and you will be rewarded.

 

[Ann]

Sadly, I think you've hit the nail on the head, Steve. This little guy is beyond shy. It really sounds like at some point he was abused, hit or frightened intentionally. Most Shelties never cower from humans even if they're shy. He really, really needs you! So glad you are working with him and taking your time. One thing you will find when the day comes (and it will!) that he comes out of his shell is that he will be the most loyal, loving dog you will ever meet. Keep up the good work and hang in there. Toffee Mom and Silaria's suggestions are spot on.

Good luck! Thanks for keeping us posted.

 

[Megansmom]

Steve, what an amazing thread and so humbling to see the love and care you and your family are showing towards this pup. It MUST be so saddening to want to pet, love and smother Sheltin with your affections but he just cowls and acts terrified.

BUT, like others have said, the "heart" and hard work you all are doing with him will pay off with an extremely devoted, faithful companion!

 

[Justicemom]

Unfortunately, not being socialized or handled can produced the same effect as physical abuse. Seen it a thousand times. He may never have been actually hit but the effect is the same. He was most definitely abused mentally. You will never know about the physical part.

You handled the bed incident just right. Nothing you could do at the point, the moment had past for feedback. Scared or not.

 

[BarbV]

I've just reread this entire thread, and the one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the use of the crate!

At the beginning of the thread you mentioned that you bought one, but it does not sound like you are using it consistently.

For a shy, timid, fearful dog like Sheltin, the crate can be a saviour. If properly introduced and managed, the crate becomes a safe haven - the pup's den. It's where he can go to recharge his batteries, or hide if he's feeling stressed or tired.

It is certainly not cruel, and is ideal for housetraining as pups will rarely soil their crates, if the crates are the right size (not too big....just enough for pup to stand up in and lie down flat). You can make a larger crate smaller by blocking off the back temporarily until pup grows bigger.

btw - I know it has nothing to do with his current behaviour issues, but get rid of the puppy pads. You ultimately want pup to know that the ONLY acceptable place for pee/poo is OUTSIDE.

Good luck to you. It sounds like you are making puppy steps progress. You are clearly attentive to his needs - he just needs time and love.

 

[sheltin]

crate use...

some encouraging news...
I talked to a 30 plus year dog trainer and learned a couple of more things I'm doing wrong.
paraphrasing bits from an hour chat, so if something looks wrong, i may have skipped some things she told me in the retelling...

I have been using a crate for him, but have been leaving it opened during the day as a hideaway.... a big apparant 'no no' I should be closing his crate during the day so he can't hide in there.

other advice, when walking him, I should just continue walking regardless if he is bulking, pulling, fighting it or trying to lay submissive. His submissive drop, according to the trainer, is his way of 'winning the battle'
of course she reiterated the use of a leash tied to me while doing chores in the house.

Feeding advice too, hold his bowl of food or place it in my lap, wait fifteen minutes for him to eat from my hand or the bowl and take it away, repeat one time a day (same time every day feed time) until he eats.

I was advised against using a harness. Using a collar was her advice.
Also, when his leash is hooked to him, I should give him his command 'come' or 'here' once then use the command while being assertive with his leash to get him to move.

She did suggest that I be more assertive with him...
opening up more discussion, this advise is from a thirty year experienced dog trainer/handler.

will update as things arise/improve....

steve

 

[Snwong]

some encouraging news...
I talked to a 30 plus year dog trainer and learned a couple of more things I'm doing wrong.
paraphrasing bits from an hour chat, so if something looks wrong, i may have skipped some things she told me in the retelling...

I have been using a crate for him, but have been leaving it opened during the day as a hideaway.... a big apparant 'no no' I should be closing his crate during the day so he can't hide in there.

other advice, when walking him, I should just continue walking regardless if he is bulking, pulling, fighting it or trying to lay submissive. His submissive drop, according to the trainer, is his way of 'winning the battle'
of course she reiterated the use of a leash tied to me while doing chores in the house.

Feeding advice too, hold his bowl of food or place it in my lap, wait fifteen minutes for him to eat from my hand or the bowl and take it away, repeat one time a day (same time every day feed time) until he eats.

I was advised against using a harness. Using a collar was her advice.
Also, when his leash is hooked to him, I should give him his command 'come' or 'here' once then use the command while being assertive with his leash to get him to move.

She did suggest that I be more assertive with him...
opening up more discussion, this advise is from a thirty year experienced dog trainer/handler.

will update as things arise/improve....

steve

Please update on how he is doing steve~

I did most of the thing with my shy Roy B too, and I do think collar is better than harness too, I used both on Roy B. I used a harness because he choked himself while he is too scared one time, since I'm taking him to puppy kindergardern and they need to use a flat collar, so I switch to collar these few days to make him get use to it. He hated it and try to chew the leash and fight the leash, but I do keep walking and I feel the collar make him recover faster in his stressful situation. Today I tried to tie him with my pants and walk, because I don't want to pull him( I feel bad using my hand to pull him). He fight but I still keep walking, I think he is better this way(although sometimes i feel bad for him because i'm afraid it will hurt him). I still stop a little bit if I feel the tension on leash is too much and let him calm down.

I watched an episode of cesar millan today about a shy Visla, when she got scared and try to pull away, cesar just stop and let her finish pulling, and wait for her to go back to normal state and walk again. I tried it on my shy Roy B today and it seems working. Cesar didn't use any correction on her, bascially he just give her time to recover from her scared state, and then walk. And of course he use Daddy to encourage her to move forward with them.

I had a few comments from trainer too and they all told me to just keep moving while he scared. But honestly I still feel somehow you have to be gentle on him and don't push too much, because if not handle properly, it will become fear aggression.

I somehow feel he don't like me that much today since I changed it to collar, I will talk to my trainer tomorrow and ask her about this.

I have a shy boy too and I'm still figuring how to deal with him, please keep us update. You are not alone~

 

[sheltin]

sheltin's two and a half mile walk!!



yep! I hooked the harness (I know I know, but I really couldn't (couldn't feel comfortable enough to) get a collar tight enough where he wouldn't slip out)
after i coaxed him out of his kennel with his leash, not my hands, he bulked, pulled, all that 'scaredy pup' stuff.
I opened the door and exited our apartment.
we have three flights of stairs, which he walked down perfectly.
as we walked, he'd try to stop and sniff or pull very little.
He got nervous and poohed while he was walking...
He walked by barking dogs and pulled away, but I kept moving forward and he kept walking.
When we got back he looked at the stairs as if saying 'are you kidding me? again?' but with a little nudging of the leash he went up the stairs and into the apartment.
Got him home. gave him a bath, because he had some pooh on urine on his fur.
now he's on leash laying next to me licking/drying himself the last bit after his bath!

So just the opposite of what I was afraid of happened.
persuading him to walk worked

now onto getting him to eat from my hand

oh, yeah... also, as he was walking, he is getting the command of 'here' to follow and 'wait' when we are at corners.. I know, I will work on one command at a time.
when he'd stop at my request, I'd give him a long stroke down his back from head to tail a couple of times then 'thump' his side a few times.
He'd look at me like 'huh?' but not drop to submissive every corner.
when he did drop to submissive at a corner, I'd ignore that. tel him 'here' and move forward and he'd follow!

guess ya can teach an old dog (me) new tricks after all!

steve, barbi, sheltin, and rupert