To Debark or not?

[SpaceCadet]

So I have a question for OP. Do you feel like you need to do it now or in the near future before you move? Because if I were you, I would wait until I got to scope out the neighbor situation in the new living situation. Maybe you will end up with incredibly friendly neighbors who don't mind your dogs barking. If you do end up with complaints then I would do the procedure. But I do understand being worried about someone wanting to harm your dog... there are some very evil people in the world.

I feel compelled to have the debark done before the move for two reasons:
1) I'm moving out of state. Not only am I not familiar with the laws regarding debarking in the state we are moving to, but I am familiar with the doctor who performs the surgeries where I currently live.
&
2) This might sound terrible, but it would save money on a procedure that he actually does need to have done- tooth extraction. I brush and scale our dogs' teeth regularly, but Donovan has a few teeth that definitely need to be pulled. Our vet will include tooth extraction with the cost of the debark. It would save hundreds of dollars...my spouse was recently laid off, I'm leaving my current job, and we're moving with what we have saved up(yes, the economy in our current area is really that bad). I don't think Donovan needs a full dental. He only needs the extraction. I will have to wait and see what the vet says tomorrow.

I will do my best to meet our new neighbors and tell them to let us know if the barking is problematic. I suppose we could always try to come back for a debark if it becomes too much of a problem. The last thing I want is someone threatening to take away our dogs, or trying to harm them over barking. I find it ridiculous and quite sad that I have to worry about our dogs barking to this extent. -sigh- I personally find it more bothersome when people let their kids run around screaming, or a stereo blaring in the middle of the night but I don't go around threatening them.

 

[JeanieNDavis]

I use bark collars on two shelties

I bought one that has varying degrees of shock from 1-9. I usually set ours on 3. there is an initial setting that gently goes from 0-3 to teach them early and gently. They don't use it everyday and I take them off when they are inside at night in their crates. I have one debarked older female that was given to me. As she has gotten older, she seems to choke easier. Not a huge problem, however.

 

[JLSOhio51]

I feel compelled to have the debark done before the move for two reasons:
1) ...I am familiar with the doctor who performs the surgeries where I currently live.
&
2) ... Our vet will include tooth extraction with the cost of the debark. It would save hundreds of dollars...

As I said earlier, I have reached the conclusion that I am not likely to participate in the debarking procedure. Of course, specific circumstances at any given time could change that decision. With all that in mind, should I be considering debarking, the two reasons you gave for doing the procedure now rather than waiting until you relocate seem reasonable to me. I pray that whichever way you choose to proceed, all goes well.

 

[mellie]

I would never devocalize my dog, just not something I would even consider. DH could not believe that this procedure is even an option. Not looking to offend anyone else who feels differently, but I think there are limits to the way we deal with animals. To me and most of the dog people I know and work with, devocalization just is not ethical- I don't know how else to say it. I say this on behalf of those creatures who are not able to speak for themselves.

 

[celloyogi]

Sigh. This gets so old. No, the voice is not "removed". No, the dogs don't have any trouble communicating. No, the livestock don't stop respecting debarked dogs. No, there are no long-term issues with the dogs being depressed. No, no, no. Just stop. Using this kind of illogical and emotional rhetoric might work on some, but give us a break, most of us here are smarter than that.

Good point about livestock respecting debarked dogs. At least from the herding competitions I've watched, the dogs are expected to use body language and eye contact to move the livestock, not barking. It would follow that a solid herding dog could be barked or debarked, wouldn't make any difference.

So much of the communication between dogs is nonverbal. Olive barks once at her Shar Pei boyfriend down the street and then it's all wiggle-speak. At our training club, everyone tries to keep barking to a minimum and all of the dogs still "talk" to each other. I'm sure some of them are debarked but no one would ever know because all the dogs are "normal" dogs.

 

[celloyogi]

I guess this also depends on who does the debark. The ones in the animal rights video were poorly done and squeaky (making a better example of their point). This is why you get an experienced vet to do it.

Those of us used to hearing a "regular" debark don't see it as "extreme".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM9DpluEkEY

In the above video, you can clearly hear Liesl barking from a distance, and you can clearly hear her not-debarked daughter barking. I would argue that the volume is probably the same, it's just the sharpness is gone. In my opinion, that makes a good debark. I don't want one of the ones demonstrated in the other video, those are too extreme for me. I want to be able to hear them when they get stuck in the basement. But I don't need my entire neighborhood hearing them while they play.

Great video! Too funny (with the ball). Treiball, anyone?

The sound difference is, to me, like a string instrument played normally or using a mute. The mute just changes the timbre, damps off the sound a bit. It's not drastic, but it does change how far the sound will carry. Kind of the point, though, right?

 

[celloyogi]

Admittedly, I never held a particular position on the subject of debarking until recently. When I had my 1st Sheltie years ago, the bark (believe it or not) was one of the reason I wanted a Sheltie (long story). Imagine my surprise when I got one of the few in the breed that rarely ever barked. He was a happy, healthy and well socialized pup, he just didn't bark often.

Wait, are you sure he was a Sheltie? I mean, really, he rarely ever barked?! He must have had that super high-frequency option installed.

 

[JLSOhio51]

Wait, are you sure he was a Sheltie? I mean, really, he rarely ever barked?! He must have had that super high-frequency option installed.

I know, I was shocked and somewhat disappointed. Just quickly, I brought him home with the hope that he would make noise when people came through our yard. I had just built a new home in the middle of a large grove of trees. The nearest lots around ours were not developed yet and street lamps were not yet installed on our block making in pitch black at night. I worked at night leaving my wife and my first daughter alone in our new surroundings. And Demitrius (my fur boy) was a no barker. In his defense, he would go on high alert whenever anyone approach the house, so if we paid attention, he really did do his job. Oh, I forgot. He did bark (quite a lot) when a half a dozen of the little neighbor kids from the next block came over to play and he was herding them around the yard. He was an outstanding dog.

 

[labgirl]

If you had the choice to make becuase of complaints on barking what would you do keep your dog or give him/her up?

Keep him, do some basic sound-proofing of the house (soft-furnishings diminish noise and there is the old-fashioned trick of egg crates on the wall as I know from spending time with sound engineers). Figure out my dogs triggers and work to either avoid them or limit his barking when they occur. Ensure open fences are covered so he can't 'see' something to bark at. Teach a 'speak' and 'stop' command (which I am working on now). In extreme use a citronella bark collar - NEVER EVER an e-collar!

But in short, I would work to avoid this problem by training first, rather than let it become a big situation.

Why do solutions always have to be so drastic on the dogs? I love you guys, but when these debates come up I want to scream. And I stick by the word 'mutilating' which is defined in the dictionary as "to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging" - surely that is what is done by any surgery which in effect is an injury?

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

I still find it intriguing that people are staunchly against debarking, but will have their dogs abdomens opened at a young age and have parts removed as a default thing that "responsible" owners do (because apparently dogs immaculately conceive?). They will take away hormones that will affect the dog in some way for the rest of it's life, but making a vocal cord smaller is "mutilation".

The cognitive dissonance there makes my head hurt.