k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
good point and good tip. With me, we're so far gone that Koji criss crosses in front me or tries to trip me. I think he does it purposefully. lol.
Training Rally/Obedience Question
- Thread starter k9kreationz
- Start date
good point and good tip. With me, we're so far gone that Koji criss crosses in front me or tries to trip me. I think he does it purposefully. lol.
Silaria
Forums Sage
I used shaping via clicker training to train Edan for his Agility and Rally performances, and more recently Treibball. I started clicker training Edan as a 7 month old puppy.
The way I shaped his Rally behavior, and I'll use heeling because you mentioned that in your post, was as follows:
Start (dog is just learning to heel or is being retaught heel) with a treat in my left hand, clicker in right hand. Right hand is held down at my side and just a little bit away from my body, as close to the nose of the dog as possible. Take a few (3 or 4) steps forward (when I say steps in this case I mean a full right and left which in Rally would actually be 2 steps), no command, click and give the treat if the dog doesn't jump at the treat. If the dog jumps, stop moving and try again.
As the dog gets the hang of 3 or 4 steps, add the command "Heel".
As the dog gets the hang of 3 or 4 steps, double the amount of steps.
Keep adding more steps at a rate that keeps the dog successful. For instance, if you go from 4 steps to 8 and the dog isn't heeling, go back to 4 until successful then increase to 6.
Eventually you work toward a heel without the treat in your hand but still on your body in a treat bag. Then ween off the treat and clicker. I still do bring them out occasionally just to proof the heel and so he learns he never knows when he's going to get something.
Now, when shaping something like a "Come Front", start rewarding him for just coming in front of you and sitting... anywhere in front of you, not necessarily a proper come front. Gradually increase the straightness of the sit.
For something like a Finish Right, teach the finish right in stages; you'll need about 4 small, easy to see on the ground, treats. Put one in your left hand and the rest in your right. Start with the dog in a come front position. From your right hand, put the treat under the dogs nose and let it lure him to about 45 degrees off the back of your right leg; click and drop the treat on the ground. Start again. Do this a few times he he gets the idea.
Part 2, drop the treat (don't lure) about 45 degrees off your right leg (not too far out since you want a nice turn) then drop a second one as close to the outside line of your left leg as you can, using your right hand. Click and treat this phase of the command. Do this a few times until the dog starts to put the two motions together.
Part 3 Repeat parts 1 and 2. now using the treat in your left hand, bring the dog from behind your left leg to a sit in the heel position. Click and treat. Repeat this a few time until the dog gets the idea.
AFTER the dog gets the idea of the entire motion, then start putting a command to it. I use "around".
Honestly, once I figured out how to teach this to Edan, he picked it up in about 2 days working on it about 30 minutes (5 min intervals). It was a rough "around" but he had the idea of what was needed. Then I just prettied it up much like I described above for the come front.
OK, have I confused you yet?
The way I shaped his Rally behavior, and I'll use heeling because you mentioned that in your post, was as follows:
Start (dog is just learning to heel or is being retaught heel) with a treat in my left hand, clicker in right hand. Right hand is held down at my side and just a little bit away from my body, as close to the nose of the dog as possible. Take a few (3 or 4) steps forward (when I say steps in this case I mean a full right and left which in Rally would actually be 2 steps), no command, click and give the treat if the dog doesn't jump at the treat. If the dog jumps, stop moving and try again.
As the dog gets the hang of 3 or 4 steps, add the command "Heel".
As the dog gets the hang of 3 or 4 steps, double the amount of steps.
Keep adding more steps at a rate that keeps the dog successful. For instance, if you go from 4 steps to 8 and the dog isn't heeling, go back to 4 until successful then increase to 6.
Eventually you work toward a heel without the treat in your hand but still on your body in a treat bag. Then ween off the treat and clicker. I still do bring them out occasionally just to proof the heel and so he learns he never knows when he's going to get something.
Now, when shaping something like a "Come Front", start rewarding him for just coming in front of you and sitting... anywhere in front of you, not necessarily a proper come front. Gradually increase the straightness of the sit.
For something like a Finish Right, teach the finish right in stages; you'll need about 4 small, easy to see on the ground, treats. Put one in your left hand and the rest in your right. Start with the dog in a come front position. From your right hand, put the treat under the dogs nose and let it lure him to about 45 degrees off the back of your right leg; click and drop the treat on the ground. Start again. Do this a few times he he gets the idea.
Part 2, drop the treat (don't lure) about 45 degrees off your right leg (not too far out since you want a nice turn) then drop a second one as close to the outside line of your left leg as you can, using your right hand. Click and treat this phase of the command. Do this a few times until the dog starts to put the two motions together.
Part 3 Repeat parts 1 and 2. now using the treat in your left hand, bring the dog from behind your left leg to a sit in the heel position. Click and treat. Repeat this a few time until the dog gets the idea.
AFTER the dog gets the idea of the entire motion, then start putting a command to it. I use "around".
Honestly, once I figured out how to teach this to Edan, he picked it up in about 2 days working on it about 30 minutes (5 min intervals). It was a rough "around" but he had the idea of what was needed. Then I just prettied it up much like I described above for the come front.
OK, have I confused you yet?
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
Why of course you've confused me. J/K. I totally understand. I'll have to see what works for Koji and usually its food and clicks. 
For Koji, not sure how much "luring" would work as he's following the food. I may try the dropping food/click bit.
On a yay note, he's got a great front. lol. Probably because that's what I do when I set him up in agility. So if he wants something that's where he's at, in front of me.
I have tried arounds and he seems to do it well w/o training, but doesn't really stop in a heel. lol. so those things I can click to clean up. All very interesting. I'm going to have to try and see what he "understands" the most since this isn't agility at all.
For Koji, not sure how much "luring" would work as he's following the food. I may try the dropping food/click bit. On a yay note, he's got a great front. lol. Probably because that's what I do when I set him up in agility. So if he wants something that's where he's at, in front of me.
I have tried arounds and he seems to do it well w/o training, but doesn't really stop in a heel. lol. so those things I can click to clean up. All very interesting. I'm going to have to try and see what he "understands" the most since this isn't agility at all.
Silaria
Forums Sage
Just as an FYI, there are some great Clicker Training and Rally Training with Clicker how to videos on YouTube. I'd link to some for you but work has YouTube blocked.
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
My boys and I just enrolled in obedience classes at our local obedience club. First class I was ready to throw up- I have seen enough leash popping, prong collars and corrections to last me a life time. I was thinking to myself, how I am going to get through the classes without snapping at someone
anyway, yesterday class made me feel better- people have noticed how good our heeling is and are asking questions!!! Not sure I will convert anyone to stop jerking their leashes but at least they will see excellent results obtained by different methods.
I posted earlier link to SG clip. She is right, heeling comes naturally with her way of teaching, it is more way of life than performance in obedience ring.
Think of it in those terms- why dog will want to be near your hip? It is all about value. Ask your dog to come and see where dog naturally lands- I bet for most people it would be somewhere in front because when you give treats you give them in front of you. So your most valuable spot is in front. Change it to the side and you will see your dog much more readily heeling with you within 2 weeks
I was a big lurer in the past. Not anymore. Luring will produce behavior but it takes about 10,000 repetitions to really get it
I am not that patient and neither are my dogs...
I am not grand on clicker and use it only for behaviors I need to get exactness. Like right now I am teaching my boys to extend hind leg backwards. They already know to lift it but I need them to extend it. That is where I would use clicker because I see no other way to communicate extended lift.
When you walk and keep your leash in the right hand- I would advise to keep your treats in the Right hand. TRANSFER treat to left hand after you see behavior you want i.e. heeling. Touch treat to your hip or knee if your dog is small then give to the pup. If you have trouble, practice without dog first.
Do not name the behavior until you absolutely love what your dog is doing.
For those who rent DVD from Bowwoflix get "Heeling is just another trick" by Silvia Trkman. It is terrific training IMHO. This particular training is based on perch work and is helpful for many other areas.
anyway, yesterday class made me feel better- people have noticed how good our heeling is and are asking questions!!! Not sure I will convert anyone to stop jerking their leashes but at least they will see excellent results obtained by different methods.
I posted earlier link to SG clip. She is right, heeling comes naturally with her way of teaching, it is more way of life than performance in obedience ring.
Think of it in those terms- why dog will want to be near your hip? It is all about value. Ask your dog to come and see where dog naturally lands- I bet for most people it would be somewhere in front because when you give treats you give them in front of you. So your most valuable spot is in front. Change it to the side and you will see your dog much more readily heeling with you within 2 weeks
I was a big lurer in the past. Not anymore. Luring will produce behavior but it takes about 10,000 repetitions to really get it
I am not that patient and neither are my dogs...I am not grand on clicker and use it only for behaviors I need to get exactness. Like right now I am teaching my boys to extend hind leg backwards. They already know to lift it but I need them to extend it. That is where I would use clicker because I see no other way to communicate extended lift.
When you walk and keep your leash in the right hand- I would advise to keep your treats in the Right hand. TRANSFER treat to left hand after you see behavior you want i.e. heeling. Touch treat to your hip or knee if your dog is small then give to the pup. If you have trouble, practice without dog first.
Do not name the behavior until you absolutely love what your dog is doing.
For those who rent DVD from Bowwoflix get "Heeling is just another trick" by Silvia Trkman. It is terrific training IMHO. This particular training is based on perch work and is helpful for many other areas.
Calliesmom
Moderator
My boys and I just enrolled in obedience classes at our local obedience club. First class I was ready to throw up- I have seen enough leash popping, prong collars and corrections to last me a life time. I was thinking to myself, how I am going to get through the classes without snapping at someone
anyway, yesterday class made me feel better- people have noticed how good our heeling is and are asking questions!!! Not sure I will convert anyone to stop jerking their leashes but at least they will see excellent results obtained by different methods.
I posted earlier link to SG clip. She is right, heeling comes naturally with her way of teaching, it is more way of life than performance in obedience ring.
Think of it in those terms- why dog will want to be near your hip? It is all about value. Ask your dog to come and see where dog naturally lands- I bet for most people it would be somewhere in front because when you give treats you give them in front of you. So your most valuable spot is in front. Change it to the side and you will see your dog much more readily heeling with you within 2 weeks
I was a big lurer in the past. Not anymore. Luring will produce behavior but it takes about 10,000 repetitions to really get it
I am not grand on clicker and use it only for behaviors I need to get exactness. Like right now I am teaching my boys to extend hind leg backwards. They already know to lift it but I need them to extend it. That is where I would use clicker because I see no other way to communicate extended lift.
When you walk and keep your leash in the right hand- I would advise to keep your treats in the Right hand. TRANSFER treat to left hand after you see behavior you want i.e. heeling. Touch treat to your hip or knee if your dog is small then give to the pup. If you have trouble, practice without dog first.
Do not name the behavior until you absolutely love what your dog is doing.
For those who rent DVD from Bowwoflix get "Heeling is just another trick" by Silvia Trkman. It is terrific training IMHO. This particular training is based on perch work and is helpful for many other areas.
your link worked well- that was a great video
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
I finally got around to watching all the videos and then some. Thanks everyone. Looks like if I can find time and a park, I can get Koji to heel. That boy is food motivated so maybe he'll learn fast. Now, where'd I put my long-line? I gotta try this during my "off" time from agility.
So much to work on. Ugh! And he needs more constant work with his anxiety too. Sheesh. Yes yes, I'm told it's all me, so here's to a new year full of wonderful training.
These videos have inspired me!
That boy is food motivated so maybe he'll learn fast. Now, where'd I put my long-line? I gotta try this during my "off" time from agility. So much to work on. Ugh! And he needs more constant work with his anxiety too. Sheesh. Yes yes, I'm told it's all me, so here's to a new year full of wonderful training.
These videos have inspired me!
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
I have no ambition for rally or formal obedience, lol
I find it to be about shaping and having value for being on your side!
Sounds to me you may have been having trouble with breaking it down into sequencesinstead of just seeing the end result of that perfect heel.
In reality I think it's no different than in agility, when you teach to run with u and not butt pass you, lol all about the flat work!!!
I find it to be about shaping and having value for being on your side!
Sounds to me you may have been having trouble with breaking it down into sequencesinstead of just seeing the end result of that perfect heel.
In reality I think it's no different than in agility, when you teach to run with u and not butt pass you, lol all about the flat work!!!
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
I haven't actually really tried to train a heel. Biggest reason is because with Miko, he doesn't walk any other way BUT in a heel. Sucked for agility. I didn't want to do the same with Koji, so we never really did any formal obedience. And it truly affected our flatwork. When Koji runs agility....he's so different than when we go for a walk. He's very obedient in the ring, but a terror outside of it and it's because I didn't care. Oops. Now I do.
I think obedience (rally or otherwise) would be good for him. Trust me, I can do a lot of great flatwork, but ask him to walk nicely, forget it. And nope, he won't heel unless we're doing flatwork.
And even then, it's a lot for him.