Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

[SheltieChe]

knowing nothing about dog or circumstances it is very hard to judge.
Huskies in general are known to be very hard to train, their recall is nonexistent, present no off leash laws make it very difficult to meet their exercise requirements so all in all they do not make great family pets.
The way I remember dog got distracted by other passing dog and CM did his famous leg kick which dog found offensive as well he should have and responded by lunging at CM who responded by escalating event and strangulating the dog.
Unacceptable!
Good trainer will know exactly how far they can go with this or that dog and change their training based on that knowledge.

 

[PreciousSheltie]

I too started looking in to CM videos on youtube after seeing Toffee's mom's link. I've never been interested so never took the time to watch any of CM's videos before, I've just heard about him, on tv ads, magazines, etc. I've never seen any of his methods played out on screen so this was quite shocking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI&feature=related

As you say, this may be argued to be cut and paste out of context to make the point but I think the point is something really big to take away. Regardless of whichever method you ARE using, I agree there isn't JUST ONE method and methods can be changed to cater to different dogs learning styles and situations. But I JUST do not think 'kicking' the dog to behave is ANY kind of possible correct teaching method. This is idea of the 'touch' carried out. Even if out of context, the mere fact that this happens, in almost every dog is kind of shocking. Especially since in a lot of cases like the dog going after the skateboard (0:21 - you're waving it around him a cm from his face, of course hes going to go after it), the german shepard "showing excitement" and getting kicked (0:51 - it wasn't doing ANYTHING), the small chihuahua looking dog being kicked repeatedly (1:23 - the only reason it STARTED barking was after CM smacked the dogs rear, wth? then says he HAD to kick the dog because the dog was being aggressive).....

I kind of stopped watching after those main ones I highlighted, it kind of got sickening after that. If I saw anyone kick their dog for sure it would be reported as animal abuse. When CM does it it's considered for training. Do we see what's going on here?? I don't think any of those situations were handled in the best way possible. It doesn't show me a man who knows how to handle a dog but a man who is impatient and wants to fix a problem too quickly, maybe just for on-screen, and tries to make the dogs shut down by kicking them in to submission. Shutting down is the worst thing you can have, I'm sure we've seen those in the smallest way even with shelties. Replace that kick with a click and treat or positive reinforcement that doesn't include teaching people that kicking a dog is okay. I know kicking a dog isnt CM's main points but they are definitely what it points to, dogs dominance to the extent that says humans need to be more dominant than their dog in order to control them, even if that being kicking them, etc.

Just my two cents in to the conversation, I definitely enjoyed reading this thread and reading everyone's opinion. My method is non-violence. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Lahree]

knowing nothing about dog or circumstances it is very hard to judge.
Huskies in general are known to be very hard to train, their recall is nonexistent, present no off leash laws make it very difficult to meet their exercise requirements so all in all they do not make great family pets.
The way I remember dog got distracted by other passing dog and CM did his famous leg kick which dog found offensive as well he should have and responded by lunging at CM who responded by escalating event and strangulating the dog.
Unacceptable!
Good trainer will know exactly how far they can go with this or that dog and change their training based on that knowledge.

I had a Siberian Husky who was the easiest dog to train that I have ever had. The person we got him from (a competitive dog sled racer) told us the same thing about Huskies. Really hard to train, stubborn, he even said stupid. No one told Aspen that. He had ONE housetraining accident. ONE. He learned to go potty outside with no problem at all. He also learned all tricks and all obedience manners (sit, stay, come, etc.) the day it was taught to him. He learned to sit when I stopped on a leash in one walk. He walked on a loose leash. HOWEVER, we never could stop him from chasing cats. He was obsessed even though he way raised with a cat and they played together all the time. I don't think he would have hurt one if he caugh up to one, but I don't know. It makes me sick to my stomach to watch that clip of CM strangling that dog. Huskies in general just love people so much. There is NO REASON FOR IT!!

 

[KarenCurtis]

I just watched alot of youtube, CM videos. Some looked bad-maybe taken out of context. I just watched German Shepherd 1, and German Shepherd 2. They were excellent, no one would object to the methods used. I really like Ceasar, but a few of the youtube clips were questionable. I wonder if his show should never have been touted as a dog training show. Instead, it is more of a person who has dealt with severe problems in dogs successfully. I just don't know, all I know is that people who post these clips to youtube have their own biases.

This is HIS SHOW, Karen... there is NO bias there!? I saw the show and it was one of the ones that made me starting to say NO MORE allowing this guy to influence how I look at my dog... This is why I found it for all the Cesar followers... read the comments... these Cesarites don't want to hear it, because it makes you question his methods and the validity of it a lot (like I did...) Clues are right there in front of your eyes on his own show! I encourage everyone to mute him and just watch the show... JUST look at the the dog's body language and imagine giving him your dog to train.

I know it's his show. I am wondering, like Barb, what preceded the methods he used. It IS important to know that for the aggressive dogs. Some were not aggressive, just problems. The "kicking" looked bad when used on the smaller dogs. The bias is that before any methods are used, Cesar explains them- it is not hard kicking- it just isn't. Period- and that was not effectively shown in the videos. While that method may be old, outdated, and not the best thing to do, please keep in mind that he is a person who loves dogs. That comes across in so many of his shows- watch German Shepherd 1 and German Shepherd 2, it is obvious. So, what is posted on youtube is biased- always. The danger of showing the "kicking" is that people will, and do, think that they should kick their dogs hard-so he should find a different way- he needs to keep this in mind, as some of his shows do not translate well to many people with problem dogs.
And yes, I would give him my sheltie to work with- I have seen him with shelties twice. I forget the episodes and the seasons, otherwise I would post them. Before he worked with them he explained about the herding breed, and how he deals with them- which is with calmness. There was the walking (herding breed, not sheltie) while passing cars episode, and the toaster episode. There was also a hair dryer episode.

 

[SheltieChe]

of course, I have seen very well trained huskies, but they all belonged to doggie people who knew the breed and knew what they were doing. As for regular pet owner who sees cute puppy "oh it looks soo cute, just like a wolf, can we have it now"
it is often a nightmare of situation because husky biddability will be significantly different from sheltie lets say. And all dogs are different of course, even within same breed as we all know.
If you note in the end of clip posted- dog does not even try to move, it has difficulty taking breath- it was not a training, it was effective near death strangulation of animal in the name of training. I would not be surprised if this dog ends up with crushed trachea or some physical damage to his throat.
I have been privileged to see few real life dog evaluations at our training facility and happy to report there are safe and kind methods to evaluate whether dog is good with other dogs, how likely it is to attack dogs or humans, and all of it without "sexy" moves of suffocating animals. As a culture we should be ashamed that such c!@#p shown on TV.

 

[seashel]

For me, a lot of the issue is, as exemplified by the discussion which has just taken place about whether there was any pre-conditioning or not - that showing dog training (of any kind) on TV as 'entertainment' carries a certain amount of danger.

Training dogs is not the quick 5 minute fix shown on the tv, whether it is Cesar, Victoria Stillwell etc. Showing only small clips of the process gives a false idea that behaviour can be altered 'instantly' and gives those watching incorrect impressions. A SKILLED trainer, who knows what they are doing, may be able to use certain techniques in a very specific situation in a specialised way. To demonstrate this on tv leaves the way wide open for the viewing public to try the method at home, without understanding perhaps the amount of physical 'force' necessary, or the underlying behavioural causes.

For example, barking dogs - a subject rather close to sheltie owners' hearts! Dogs bark for a huge variety of reasons from fear to boredom. Trying to 'cure' a fear barker using the same technique as for a boredom barker is unlikely to work. Not only different breeds but as we know, individual dogs sometimes require completly different approachs to the same issue. Dogs learn at different speeds and tolerate different amounts of 'pressure'. Owners also have different capabilities. Someone with a physical disability cannot train a dog in exactly the same way as an able bodied person.

I really don't think dog training (of any kind) should be shown on tv. After all, no one produces tv shows demonstrating how to wire a house, or fix a car, or learn to drive because the consequences of someone misinterpreting the information and getting it wrong could be disasterous. I think the same applies to training dogs. People need to learn obviously, but they should not be led to believe they can learn from brief clips during an hour's tv show!

 

[BarbV]

I really don't think dog training (of any kind) should be shown on tv. After all, no one produces tv shows demonstrating how to wire a house, or fix a car, or learn to drive because the consequences of someone misinterpreting the information and getting it wrong could be disasterous. I think the same applies to training dogs. People need to learn obviously, but they should not be led to believe they can learn from brief clips during an hour's tv show!

That's an interesting perspective. I understand the dangers that you are referring to. One quick TV clip, and you think you have the answers!

Yet, at the same time, by showing the positive effects of dog training, it at least gives owners some hope that something can be done and perhaps prompt them to get the help they need, rather than write their dogs off as hopeless. I think that's the real benefit of these shows.

 

[BarbV]

Does it matter what preceded it? he choked that dog.
Watch 'It's me or the dog' she deals with plenty 'red zone' cases, if you want another person's perspective of what IS possible and humane training, in my book it's never Cesar under ANY circumstances.

I looked at the video again. You are quite correct, he did give the dog a side kick, but more importantly, it was not obvious why he did so! There did not appear to be a reason for "correction", but as soon as he did it, the dog went ape. And then of course, the situation was getting out of control so he had no choice but do force the dog down.

I'm not sure what to think about this. I don't think CM is purposefully cruel, so what's the point of him instigating the behaviour? To get a good TV shot? I can't imagine that.

But let's go back to the question of an overly aggressive dog, and one that is capable of attacking humans.

How WOULD you go about calming that temperment? What WOULD Victoria do, for example?

 

[KarenCurtis]

of course, I have seen very well trained huskies, but they all belonged to doggie people who knew the breed and knew what they were doing. As for regular pet owner who sees cute puppy "oh it looks soo cute, just like a wolf, can we have it now"
it is often a nightmare of situation because husky biddability will be significantly different from sheltie lets say. And all dogs are different of course, even within same breed as we all know.

I definitely agree with your post above.

If you note in the end of clip posted- dog does not even try to move, it has difficulty taking breath- it was not a training, it was effective near death strangulation of animal in the name of training..

Near death? I doubt it. I am certainly not going to accuse CM of trying to strangle a dog. Nor will I condone it.

 

[KarenCurtis]

For me, a lot of the issue is, as exemplified by the discussion which has just taken place about whether there was any pre-conditioning or not - that showing dog training (of any kind) on TV as 'entertainment' carries a certain amount of danger.

Training dogs is not the quick 5 minute fix shown on the tv, whether it is Cesar, Victoria Stillwell etc. Showing only small clips of the process gives a false idea that behaviour can be altered 'instantly' and gives those watching incorrect impressions. A SKILLED trainer, who knows what they are doing, may be able to use certain techniques in a very specific situation in a specialised way. To demonstrate this on tv leaves the way wide open for the viewing public to try the method at home, without understanding perhaps the amount of physical 'force' necessary, or the underlying behavioural causes.

Very true, that is the risk. People may think they can just watch the shows without consulting anyone. A dog with fear, aggression, and other serious problems requires more.

I really don't think dog training (of any kind) should be shown on tv. After all, no one produces tv shows demonstrating how to wire a house, or fix a car, or learn to drive because the consequences of someone misinterpreting the information and getting it wrong could be disasterous. I think the same applies to training dogs. People need to learn obviously, but they should not be led to believe they can learn from brief clips during an hour's tv show!

But we do have tv shows demonstrating how to wire houses- the demonstrations are done by electricians, not how to do it yourself people. Again, a risk is being taken by showing this.