Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

[SheltieChe]

Anticipating the worst I see... hahaha A good heads up I guess after a comment like that unresponded to by most so far. No worries, everyone here has been respectful, even with the lash of CM that started before Lacey's comment. But yes, this definitely has been a very interesting thread so far, any other trainers/training techniques out there? I definitely don't know any by name so it's been interesting so far to hear of the different people.

I am sure locally there are plenty of positive methods trainers, that tide turned 20 years ago and it grown very nicely.

I have had great luck with 2 companies of rental DVD Bowwowflix and Tawzerdogs- they have lots of rentals on doggie training, behavior and such- so if your local pickings are slim, it is great way to learn things on your own.
Susan Garrett has become a great presence on the web and VERY mindful positive trainer. SG offers several on line courses which are amazing!
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/10/cliff-hangers/
Present puppy raising program Puppy Peaks is wonderful guide for kind and loving way to raise your dog/ yet not permissive by any means/
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClickerDogs#p/u/22/3reGQdnvo90
anyone can sign up for monthly views BTW, well worth it!
My training facility has close ties to Susanne Clothier, who is excellent behaviorist
http://flyingdogpress.com/content/category/4/13/97/
Chris Bach and her third way dog training is very popular specially in Midwest, she is from WI
http://www.trainthethirdway.com/
John Rogerson came a long way to become one of the leading dog trainers in UK and visiting US as well
http://www.johnrogerson.com/
if you find his book "Dog Vinci code" in library you are in for a treat
http://www.johnrogerson.com/sales.html
Karen Pryor and her book " Don't shoot the dog" is must read even if you do not use much of the clicker
http://www.clickertraining.com/
Pat Miller is good read for beginners
http://www.peaceablepaws.com/
IT IS ALMOST AN IRONY that original Dog Whisperer Paul Owen is all about non violence
http://www.raisewithpraise.com/
His books are very good, specially for people who are just starting in doggie world

 

[Mikos_Mom]

he wants instant gratification and hasn't the patience to train Gracie properly. That's why a lot of these "instant results" people get so much publicity.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment. I think it's a pretty strong feeling to want to tell a dog something "forcefully" once or twice and then they never do it again... Instead of 3 weeks spent rewarding the wanted behaviour and waiting for the dog to make the connection.

 

[BarbV]

I'm going to ask a leading question here....

So there is lots of talk about positive reinforcement training techniques, and I think intellectually we all get that. That takes time to train and reinforce, and sometimes you don't have that. So let's get off the podiums for a moment and talk reality.

Is there a single person on this forum who has never yelled at their dog, or chastised him/her? I will admit that I will back Indy up and force him into a sit when he's barking like a fool hound and won't stop, but the doorbell has rung and I need to answer it.

I know the long term solution is reinforcement. But sometimes, you just have to get these dogs to obey, just because I said so.

 

[Jaynie]

I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment. I think it's a pretty strong feeling to want to tell a dog something "forcefully" once or twice and then they never do it again... Instead of 3 weeks spent rewarding the wanted behaviour and waiting for the dog to make the connection.

It's also inexplicably hard to get people to understand that DOGS DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH. They speak DOG. And so you must learn to interpret Dog, and the dog must learn to interpret English (or "Human", if you will).

 

[BarbV]

It's also inexplicably hard to get people to understand that DOGS DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH. They speak DOG. And so you must learn to interpret Dog, and the dog must learn to interpret English (or "Human", if you will).

Ok, so playing devil's advocate. How does a mother dog train her pups? Not with treats and clickers.

She grabs them by the ruff and gives them a good shake.

 

[SheltieChe]

I'm going to ask a leading question here....

So there is lots of talk about positive reinforcement training techniques, and I think intellectually we all get that. That takes time to train and reinforce, and sometimes you don't have that. So let's get off the podiums for a moment and talk reality.

Is there a single person on this forum who has never yelled at their dog, or chastised him/her? I will admit that I will back Indy up and force him into a sit when he's barking like a fool hound and won't stop, but the doorbell has rung and I need to answer it.

I know the long term solution is reinforcement. But sometimes, you just have to get these dogs to obey, just because I said so.

We all humans, I have yelled at my dogs, it felt good at the moment, produced no long lasting results. My friend has t- shirt " Dog Whispering does not work, I am a dog Yeller" or something to that degree
Your dogs are refection of your abilities as a trainer. If you did not teach them to "go place" when doorbell rings why get upset when they don't?

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Ok, so playing devil's advocate. How does a mother dog train her pups? Not with treats and clickers.

She grabs them by the ruff and gives them a good shake.

I've not had my girls do that. I have never seen them even pick up a puppy. She might lay teeth, but that is a last resort.

 

[Caro]

The very worst thing you can do to a dog? Temporarily withdrawing social contact. Works better than beating, shooting, or a tap on the nose. Most Shelties I've come across respond to it almost instantly, and most other breeds do, too. Dogs are SOCIAL animals, as are all pack animals.

I agree, I find temporarily withdrawing attention very useful tool for training too, esp for problem behaviours. It works both for the handler and the dog. Most dog's value their owners attention as the highest resource so taking it away is very effective punishment. And I know a little 'time out' often helps the handler calm down too - works for me.

Is there a single person on this forum who has never yelled at their dog, or chastised him/her?

I don't think its a question of whether people yell at their dogs and it may even work at the time. But we are talking about 'professional' people who are offering advice on long term solutions to behaviour issues.

Ok, so playing devil's advocate. How does a mother dog train her pups? Not with treats and clickers.

She grabs them by the ruff and gives them a good shake.

We aren't dogs, or wolves and shouldn't be pretending we are to reprimand our dogs. Our dogs know we aren't dogs, they were domesticated based on our social moors so while I agree it is important to understand the contexts in which dogs learn - or Doglish as Sarah Hodgsen calls it - we don't have to pretent we are something we're not.

As it is mother dogs have a retinue of actions to train and punish her pups. Nudges, nuzzles, pushes, growls, barks, licks, mimicry - shaking is one of the minor ones. I'm not going to use these, I am not their mother, I'm not a dog. I'll use positive reinforcement, minor punishments like withdrawing attention or refusing treats, and I will lead by example. If the dogs are going really silly I may yell at them - but I don't expect any 'training' to be going on, its a quick fix that won't work beyond the moment.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

NOT again with the we only do what their Mom's do, or what wolves do in the wild... I really thought we had dismantled that myth around here
http://clickerleash.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/demystifying-dominance/
... and thanks Clantyre Sheltie for sharing that your Mommas don't do that nasty shaking stuff If dogs do it they do it at a very young age, not through adulthood!!

and YES, being realistic and real!!!

After I CHANGED my evil ways from the Cesar like BS training that I used to believe in, I have NEVER, EVER laid a hand again on my dog since! The beauty was I didn't have to... because I changed MY behaviour and I couldn't believe my eyes, it changed my dog. Dogs are masters at shaping us, that is why I know shaping works so well, lol

Here is my own Journey from there to here, if any of you are interested:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&&note_id=10150183716440885#!/note.php?note_id=10150183716440885

Here is what ARF, an Ontario Rescue organization makes you sign before you adopt one of their dogs:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150266866855885#!/editnote.php?draft&note_id=10150266866855885&id=512965884

Here is what a real person's experience was with Cesar Milan before he got famous:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150266866855885#!/note.php?note_id=10150233936845885

 

[Justicemom]

Ok, so playing devil's advocate. How does a mother dog train her pups? Not with treats and clickers.

She grabs them by the ruff and gives them a good shake.

No they don't I have never seen a mother dog pick a pup up and shake it. Never.

I have seen them knock them down(never pin them) or put teeth on them in a quick motion(after amply warning). Mother dogs are really rather tolerate of their puppies I find.