Even in the U.S., where apparently we are in the agility dark ages, the trainers I know begin handling training with their puppies in just this way.
On Early Takeoffs
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Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
I agree- we do work flatwork with our dogs prior to them ever being asked to jump. Sure, there are probably still plenty who don't, but a large amount of the agility community here in the US has caught up in that regard and has learned the value of teaching on the flat first. My five month old is learning recall to heels, backsides, threadles, pushes, forward and lateral sends, tight turns (cik and cap), and front, blind, and rear crosses all on the flat now. It is all just a really fun game for her right now. She will have all of the skills before she is even a year old without ever having been asked to take a jump. It is what is taught around here by the better trainers now.
However, it doesn't prevent ETS from developing if there is an eye issue. You can be regarded as one of the best handlers out there who did all of the right things and still wind up with an ETS dog. I think a talented trainer/handler can teach a dog all of the flatwork, and to jump with confidence, and avoid/fix some of the other reasons dogs might start taking off early, but in the ones it is truly a vision issue, there isn't a whole lot that can be done. I do know that in certain lines it really is a vision issue. Regardless of the area, training method, trainer/handler, the ones with true vision issues are going to have trouble jumping.
There is someone I know who has a dog from a particular line known for ETS. The bitch has ETS. She had an oops litter, and both puppies also wound up with ETS. They are not both owned by the same person or trained the same way. I know one is a fabulous handler who didn't create it.
What I'm getting at is that it isn't just that we are behind the times here in the US. There are many potential causes of ETS, and vision and certain structural faults can cause it. In those cases, the blame unfortunately is the dog, not where the handler has messed up.
However, it doesn't prevent ETS from developing if there is an eye issue. You can be regarded as one of the best handlers out there who did all of the right things and still wind up with an ETS dog. I think a talented trainer/handler can teach a dog all of the flatwork, and to jump with confidence, and avoid/fix some of the other reasons dogs might start taking off early, but in the ones it is truly a vision issue, there isn't a whole lot that can be done. I do know that in certain lines it really is a vision issue. Regardless of the area, training method, trainer/handler, the ones with true vision issues are going to have trouble jumping.
There is someone I know who has a dog from a particular line known for ETS. The bitch has ETS. She had an oops litter, and both puppies also wound up with ETS. They are not both owned by the same person or trained the same way. I know one is a fabulous handler who didn't create it.
What I'm getting at is that it isn't just that we are behind the times here in the US. There are many potential causes of ETS, and vision and certain structural faults can cause it. In those cases, the blame unfortunately is the dog, not where the handler has messed up.
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
Not often seen in this area and not traditionally taught at puppy agility classes, even good ones. Most people here would still start with one jump exercises and separate obstacle teaching, generally will not do handling sequences until pup is a bit older, like close to year old.
It is same way however ST teaching her foundations, lots of handling with tons of tunnels, open channel weaves and few stanchions. Now that she got a baby To should be fun to watch clips
In my mind, handling is one of the most important if not the most important environmental factor that affects jumping and decisions that dog makes on the agility course. Taught from baby up by the time height jumps come in, handling is no distraction to the dog. From what I understand neither OMD or ST have any special jumping programs.
Am not here to blame the handler, am generally not about the blame but am for looking and evaluating bigger picture and all components that are playing role in developing jumping problems. Am sure it must be devastating for people who end up having dogs with difficulties jumping, and probably does not make them feel good when told it is their fault for not doing proper foundation or teaching different handling, or doing more jumping grids. Labels do not help. Looking for solutions does.
It is same way however ST teaching her foundations, lots of handling with tons of tunnels, open channel weaves and few stanchions. Now that she got a baby To should be fun to watch clips
In my mind, handling is one of the most important if not the most important environmental factor that affects jumping and decisions that dog makes on the agility course. Taught from baby up by the time height jumps come in, handling is no distraction to the dog. From what I understand neither OMD or ST have any special jumping programs.
Am not here to blame the handler, am generally not about the blame but am for looking and evaluating bigger picture and all components that are playing role in developing jumping problems. Am sure it must be devastating for people who end up having dogs with difficulties jumping, and probably does not make them feel good when told it is their fault for not doing proper foundation or teaching different handling, or doing more jumping grids. Labels do not help. Looking for solutions does.
Here is something interesting.
watch 4 months old puppy doing those challenges... wanna bet that this pup will never develop ETS?
http://www.oneminddogs.com/article/Eyewitness-Agility-Training-Challenge-2/
It is comments such as this that demonstrates a complete lack of insight or understanding of ETS.
One of the biggest issues with ETS is not knowing what dogs will start to exhibit the symptoms later in life. You could have a dog at the top of the sport handled by the best handler in the world & if the dog is pre-disposed to ETS then there is *nothing* that you can do to prevent the recognized symptoms from being expressed. Dogs affected with ETS cannot be excused as just older dogs with failing eyesight. That is not what it is about. If you read the available literature you will find that dogs that have shown to have been wonderful agility dogs with no prior history of jumping issues often begin to express the symptoms after a year or two of successful competition. This is not the same as a dog with a diagnosable vision issue that may have never jumped "correctly" or a handler that is so incompetent that they create the problem. Such myths are part of the reason why some people look at this in such a negative & derogatory light.
The only factor to-date that I am aware of that has been documented is whether a breeding line has ever exhibited the symptoms in other dogs from the said line. That doesn't guarantee anything one way or another for any particular individual dog but it does increase or decrease the probability significantly.
I was being sarcastic. I don't think agility in the U.S. is inferior to the rest of the world. The differences we see are primarily because our competitive environment, which stresses titling over winning, is much different than the European system where you have to win to advance to the next level.LOL
dark ages
Yep, same in Canada
It seems to me that much of what is being touted as 'new' when it comes to agility training is really nothing more than rebranding so that someone can claim techniques are a new method and then sell seminars and DVDs. I'm not saying the content isn't helpful, just that very little is truly new.
Yep, the US system tends to serve the greater volume of recreational agility participants rather than the more competitive but smaller participant pool, at least in AKC. At least USDAA offers tournaments.
Personally I'd be quite happy with the European organization but believe that would have the affect of dwindling entries as the majority of participants would start to feel being left out. So I don't see it changing anytime soon.
In some ways it reflects how the different approaches balance the relative value of consistency versus speed & the resulting nature of the demographics of participants.
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
OH I KNOW, that is why I thought it was a brilliant comment!
I couldn't have agreed more!
This is the type of thread I love reading on here! I was intrigued by the reference to 'ETS' so had to find out more. I've never heard of this before and from reading all your posts it seems to be quite a contraversial/sensitive topic and one that is causing some concern.
It has raised some questions in my mind:
I think I'm understanding correctly - this is 'diagnosed' based on jumping behaviour in agility dogs? SheltieChe touched on something in post#18 -does this affect their every day life or is it only an issue with advanced level agility? What about dogs in other sports such as flyball, working trials, disc dog etc?
It seems there is no physiological evidence yet for it - no discernable changes to eye structure? Could it be neurological? Various links from agility spheres have been posted but have any scientific studies been done?
Concerns have been raised about whether it is hereditary. I'm guesing that it isn't a significant enough issue to secure funding into DNA testing to see whether there is something identifiable at molecular level?
I'm actually stunned that anyone would consider making a dog wear contact lenses simply in order that it can continue competing. I wear them myself and it isn't a pleasant process getting them in or out and a bit of grit in your eye is 10x as painful behind a lens. I know they are used on dogs sometimes after eye surgery/eye problems but that is to aid recovery and for an improved quality of life and doesn't normally require insertion and removal by the owner.
I can see some parallels here with CEA. What would worry me is that people start 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. When CEA was first identified there were a lot of unknown factors and some breeders went all out to erradicate it from their lines at the expense of everything else. Now obviously a great deal more is known and there is a DNA test to determine whether the dog is genetically clear, a carrier or affected. While this is a useful tool, there is concern that in a drive to produce genetically clear dogs there is a danger that a) the genepool will become too restrcted b) other factors, potentially more serious, may be unwillingly overlooked or even potentially perpetuated. CEA isn't a progressive condition, it isn't life threatning and it generally has little, if any impact on quality of life. I would take an affected dog any day over one with a poor hip score and my affected dog has eyes like a hawk although he is a veteran. Many breeders keep reiterating that CEA status is just ONE aspect to consider. It isn't the be all and end all. Even veterinary eye specialists urge a sense of perspective to be maintained.
From reading the various posts I think I'm correct in that there isn't currently a definitive diagnosis for ETS (so subjective as to whether a dog has it or not)? The jury also appears to be out on whether the 'symptom' is due to vision defects, handling, training, psycological issues so there is also no identified cause? This seems to be very tenuous information on which to base desicions?
I don't want anyone to take this personally or as a critisism, after all we are all perfectly entitled to make our own choices and everyone has their own interpretation of what is important and it's not for me to say whether that's right or wrong. I've done breed showing and have made buying desicions heavily influenced by the 'type' I prefer which is probably pretty shallow! My opinion on this subject (based on this thread and the various links) is that I don't think there will ever come a time where complete perfection is attained (and I hope it doesn't for what will be left to aim for!?) I fully appreciate too that it is heartbreaking to have a dog that is not able to fulfil his purpose whether that is conformation, agility, assistance dog, pet or whatever. (I've been there myself and seen my long held hopes dashed). But I confess, I am rather surprised that something where it is currently *impossible* to predict, diagnose and identify a cause appears to be such a concern in a performance discipline. Especially as it doesn't, by all accounts, have a detrimental effect on the life of the dog outside the competition ring. Is it significant enough to disregard a dog that meets all other criteria just because there is a possibility that it might take off early when it is jumping at some point later in life?
It has raised some questions in my mind:
I think I'm understanding correctly - this is 'diagnosed' based on jumping behaviour in agility dogs? SheltieChe touched on something in post#18 -does this affect their every day life or is it only an issue with advanced level agility? What about dogs in other sports such as flyball, working trials, disc dog etc?
It seems there is no physiological evidence yet for it - no discernable changes to eye structure? Could it be neurological? Various links from agility spheres have been posted but have any scientific studies been done?
Concerns have been raised about whether it is hereditary. I'm guesing that it isn't a significant enough issue to secure funding into DNA testing to see whether there is something identifiable at molecular level?
I'm actually stunned that anyone would consider making a dog wear contact lenses simply in order that it can continue competing. I wear them myself and it isn't a pleasant process getting them in or out and a bit of grit in your eye is 10x as painful behind a lens. I know they are used on dogs sometimes after eye surgery/eye problems but that is to aid recovery and for an improved quality of life and doesn't normally require insertion and removal by the owner.
I can see some parallels here with CEA. What would worry me is that people start 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. When CEA was first identified there were a lot of unknown factors and some breeders went all out to erradicate it from their lines at the expense of everything else. Now obviously a great deal more is known and there is a DNA test to determine whether the dog is genetically clear, a carrier or affected. While this is a useful tool, there is concern that in a drive to produce genetically clear dogs there is a danger that a) the genepool will become too restrcted b) other factors, potentially more serious, may be unwillingly overlooked or even potentially perpetuated. CEA isn't a progressive condition, it isn't life threatning and it generally has little, if any impact on quality of life. I would take an affected dog any day over one with a poor hip score and my affected dog has eyes like a hawk although he is a veteran. Many breeders keep reiterating that CEA status is just ONE aspect to consider. It isn't the be all and end all. Even veterinary eye specialists urge a sense of perspective to be maintained.
From reading the various posts I think I'm correct in that there isn't currently a definitive diagnosis for ETS (so subjective as to whether a dog has it or not)? The jury also appears to be out on whether the 'symptom' is due to vision defects, handling, training, psycological issues so there is also no identified cause? This seems to be very tenuous information on which to base desicions?
I don't want anyone to take this personally or as a critisism, after all we are all perfectly entitled to make our own choices and everyone has their own interpretation of what is important and it's not for me to say whether that's right or wrong. I've done breed showing and have made buying desicions heavily influenced by the 'type' I prefer which is probably pretty shallow! My opinion on this subject (based on this thread and the various links) is that I don't think there will ever come a time where complete perfection is attained (and I hope it doesn't for what will be left to aim for!?) I fully appreciate too that it is heartbreaking to have a dog that is not able to fulfil his purpose whether that is conformation, agility, assistance dog, pet or whatever. (I've been there myself and seen my long held hopes dashed). But I confess, I am rather surprised that something where it is currently *impossible* to predict, diagnose and identify a cause appears to be such a concern in a performance discipline. Especially as it doesn't, by all accounts, have a detrimental effect on the life of the dog outside the competition ring. Is it significant enough to disregard a dog that meets all other criteria just because there is a possibility that it might take off early when it is jumping at some point later in life?
From my understanding, a dogs jumping performance is only 1 of the observable markers. Since most obstacles in any course are jumps you are going to see it there more often. Affected dogs appear to also have problems on up-contacts & tables: similar with jumps they may miss out a stride & make first contact very low on the dw/teeter/AF - the table performance can also can be affected in a similar way - if misjudged more than usual an affected dog can injure themselves when their feet can't reach the table top.
At home a dog may have similar issues jumping up onto a bed or couch.
The problem need not be limited to advanced level agility - the difficulty of an advanced course does not induce ETS any more than a novice course.
While definitive proof of causality is not yet available, for those who have insight into ETS the jury is not "out" w.r.t. the list given. The primary suspect is vision related - in fact, the publish works have repeatedly eliminated from cause the other issues you list: especially handling & training. These are often "blamed" by those with a different agenda, or those who simply do not believe in ETS, some thinking it is an easy to use excuse by those who have "created" the problem.
It is sad that such a viewpoint is so quickly accepted.
FYI/ I do not have an ETS dog but I have seen it - and I have seen the hurt caused by those who have blamed the handler. I will say though that not all jumping issues are caused by ETS & that there are likely a good proportion of dogs with jumping issues that have inappropriately been excused as ETS when in fact perhaps there have been other causes. Those instances only serve to validate the naysayers.