On Early Takeoffs

Sealtainn:

I am enjoying this conversation even though much of it is outside of my realm of understanding. What I am enjoying the most is the interchange of opinions. I will admit, however, to being totally confused by your last post. If I deciphered your point correctly, you are saying: 1). ETS is in fact a real syndrome that afflicts cannines, 2). there are definitions of ETS even though they may be slightly incorrect/confusing/non specific in at least some cases, but, 3). if you can actually find a cause of ETS in a specific dog, then by definition, that dog is not suffering from ETS. I am now totally confused.
 
Now, unfortunately it IS also seen prevalently in some lines. I can think of a handful where many dogs from the line have a problem. When it shows up in several dogs from the same line and run by different handlers, it does seem likely that there is some genetic issue at play. It isn't something to get upset about if it's something observed in a line you have, but it is something for someone seriously competing in agility to consider before buying a new agility dog. ETS can severely affect a dogs agility career, and for someone wanting more than a pet, it is worth investigating which lines have produced their fair share of ETS dogs and trying to discover if there is an issue behind these dogs causing it. Let's face it- no one wants to get a dog with lofty goals and have their goals limited because the dog has an issue.
I do know of two breeders who know it is a vision issue, and is in their lines, and will honestly talk to people who are interested in their dogs about it before they breed or before they buy a puppy from them.
 
Sealtainn:

I am enjoying this conversation even though much of it is outside of my realm of understanding. What I am enjoying the most is the interchange of opinions. I will admit, however, to being totally confused by your last post. If I deciphered your point correctly, you are saying: 1). ETS is in fact a real syndrome that afflicts cannines, 2). there are definitions of ETS even though they may be slightly incorrect/confusing/non specific in at least some cases, but, 3). if you can actually find a cause of ETS in a specific dog, then by definition, that dog is not suffering from ETS. I am now totally confused.

See http://www.awesomepaws.us/early-takeoff-syndrome/ & the various articles linked from that page.

Since the original definition of ETS was published, the definition was expanded into various sub-definitions where primarily the new definition of "classic ETS" is equivalent to the original definition of ETS, however, with more exposure & consideration of the broader range of causes of early take-offs other sub-definitions were termed.

ETS (and classic ETS) by definition states that the cause is unknown at this point even though the suspicion is that it is likely primarily related to vision, the exact cause, or causes have not been identified (IMO it is unlikely that there is one root cause given the diversity of identified causes of similar early take-offs).

Let's say you go through all the tests & nothing is found wrong at all with the eyes yet the early take-offs can be regularly observed, etc... and your dog is considered a classic case of ETS. Hypothetically say you have the dogs eyes & related structures checked thoroughly & extensively on a regular basis from different experts in the field (i.e. not your average vet).
If an abnormality that could not be originally detected no matter how thorough the tests were progresses to the point of being able to be detected or if a (new or repeated) test is undertaken by a different expert or the same expert at some other time on a dog for which an abnormality can now be detected but may or may not be degenerative then the cause of the early-takeoffs may no longer be considered an unknown due to the newly discovered abnormality.

Had such a dog not been tested to an extent beyond that of the average "ETS"-labelled dog then it's abnormality would continue to go undetected, remain unknown, and so continue to be considered a case of a classic ETS dog.

Since there are many ways for which vision can be affected there are many different possible abnormalities that would have to be tested. The issue that I believe for ETS research at this point is being able to identify what needs to be tested. The current tests for which an ETS dog would have to pass (i.e. the absence of a detectable abnormality) is quite limited IMO.
 
In fact, the way ETS has been defined (and redefined), in some ways contributes to the confusion & controversy. Before being "labelled" ETS a dog needs to be evaluated & tested.
Should the dog "pass" these specific tests it may be considered as exhibiting the symptoms of ETS.

how/where would one get a dog evaluated/tested?
 
So I'm going to simplify my opinion even further, from the perspective of a breeder.

I don't really care why the dog takes off early or jumps badly. But when I see it happen in multiple dogs within a "line", I remove that group of dogs from anything I will purchase or breed to.

My reasoning is that I want a dog that is sound enough to jump on his own. I don't think dogs should be "jump trained" and we shouldn't be putting that much effort into it. Just like I think dogs should be sound of mind enough to walk into any venue without fear, I want a dog sound in body enough to manage to jump reasonably without extra training.

When I see the sickle hocks and long bodies in some "performance" lines, that's just as bad as bad eyesight.
 
how/where would one get a dog evaluated/tested?

I believe the current recommendation is an ophthalmologist that is certified to perform a streak retinoscopy. The catch here is if something is found... then you have your likely cause and its not classic ETS, but the failure to find anything wrong is the current qualification for ETS.
Dogs can still pass the retinoscopy test but have some other abnormality, so it's going to depend on how good the doctor is & how thorough an overall eye exam she can perform.

If vision doesn't show up then an orthopedic test may be considered.
 
I don't really care why the dog takes off early or jumps badly. But when I see it happen in multiple dogs within a "line", I remove that group of dogs from anything I will purchase or breed to.

I agree. That is something I do as I don't want to mess with bringing it into my lines, regardless of what the cause.
 
Oh, but people do get hurt by placed or misplaced labels. And dogs do get labeled " defective"... what about being innocent till proven otherwise?:rolleyes2:
Who got the blame and labeled in this original article? Yep, the dog.
Never mind that what we see in that video clip is dog that is not happy to jump, had severe enough injuries that it took months to get dog just to start jumping again, handling that is done steering from the rear ...
Here is some novel thought... area where one person lives seems to see lots of ETS, area where other person lives does not see much, what else is the difference... hmm, how about a originator of entire idea and lots of people who support said idea, get expert opinion from same expert/s and does the same style of handling... fear has big eyes? people see what they want to see?
I get a feeling from chatting with various peeps... people from Europe and UK get kinda baffled by all anxiety about perfectly centered jumping arches and kinda don't get it...
Not looking to judge anyone, just trying to reframe the moment and put things in different perspective...
BTW there is excellent article on OMD system by Janita in Jan issue of CR, what caught my attention is Janita's description how they taught agility in Scotland. Entire course gets set up and then bars get removed, dog runs learning handling cues with no bars... then bars get put back ...
 
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