On Early Takeoffs

[HopeShelties]

If you are breeding with performance in mind, a dog with a vision issue that causes ETS is a pretty big deal, and not something people would want to take chances reproducing. It can be a pretty devastating thing to come up for someone competing seriously in agility. Why take chances at the dog already starting in agility at a disadvantage?
I wouldn't knowingly breed to a dog with a thyroid problem, dysplastic hips, vwd, or an eye issue, so why breed a dog/line that has produced ETS?
Also in the agility world, you don't want to get labeled as someone producing ETS dogs. You are likely to have people not want to get a dog from you as they don't want to fool with ETS. There are a few lines known for it, and I have heard people advising others to stay away from those lines for fear of winding up with a dog with ETS.
I'm sorry but when the issue consistently shows up in a line, that isn't something I want to breed into. It's just asking to bring in something that could potentially be hard to eradicate once it is brought in.
CEA is a simple recessive. A person can make an educated decision whether they want to take a chance at producing potential carriers either by breeding to a carrier or affected dog. With ETS, we don't have a test, and we have no idea how it is inherited. It's just better to steer clear of it. We can't at this time make that call so it is much safer to just stay away from it. It's not like the lines will be completely lost. Some of them known for it are conformation lines, and those breeders are not going to stop breeding their dogs over it.

 

[seashel]

Thanks for your replies Hopeshelties and Sealtainn.

I've been thinking some more about this subject today and in a way it reminds me of how it was for people with dyslexia before it was a recognised condition. They were blamed for something they had no control over which affected their performance but now it is identifiable there are many ways to help deal with it.

I guess it is much easier to excuse a person or a dog on the grounds of something which is a visible disability but invisible conditions that others cannot see and therefore comprehend are usually dismissed.

 

[corbinam]

From my understanding, a dogs jumping performance is only 1 of the observable markers. Since most obstacles in any course are jumps you are going to see it there more often. Affected dogs appear to also have problems on up-contacts & tables: similar with jumps they may miss out a stride & make first contact very low on the dw/teeter/AF - the table performance can also can be affected in a similar way - if misjudged more than usual an affected dog can injure themselves when their feet can't reach the table top.
At home a dog may have similar issues jumping up onto a bed or couch.
The problem need not be limited to advanced level agility - the difficulty of an advanced course does not induce ETS any more than a novice course.



While definitive proof of causality is not yet available, for those who have insight into ETS the jury is not "out" w.r.t. the list given. The primary suspect is vision related - in fact, the publish works have repeatedly eliminated from cause the other issues you list: especially handling & training. These are often "blamed" by those with a different agenda, or those who simply do not believe in ETS, some thinking it is an easy to use excuse by those who have "created" the problem.
It is sad that such a viewpoint is so quickly accepted.

FYI/ I do not have an ETS dog but I have seen it - and I have seen the hurt caused by those who have blamed the handler. I will say though that not all jumping issues are caused by ETS & that there are likely a good proportion of dogs with jumping issues that have inappropriately been excused as ETS when in fact perhaps there have been other causes. Those instances only serve to validate the naysayers.

Thanks for saying this better than I could!

 

[JLSOhio51]

From my understanding, a dogs jumping performance is only 1 of the observable markers...

At home a dog may have similar issues jumping up onto a bed or couch.

Sealtainn:

Let me reiterate, I have had some trouble logically following the conversations about ETS, but because of the direction I would like to procede with a dog, I am very interested in the topic. (BTW, my difficulty stems from trying to sift through comments here that often seem to be diametrically opposed to each other). However, I am intrigued by your comment re: dogs jumping on the bed. Could you comment on what type of indicators could be observed in dogs jumping on a bed that might indicate the presence of ETS? The reason behind my question is that it would seem to me (a novice) that a trained individual might see clear indicators in dogs who are jumping over obstacles following a lead up at some speed. But, since jumping on a bed would less likely include the run up, I am unsure what the indicators would be. What would a trained individual be looking for in a dog that was simply jumping to an obstacle from a relatively standing position?

 

[HopeShelties]

I know of a dog personally who has ETS and struggles to judge how to jump up into their owners SUV, or up onto the bed. Instead of just loading up, the dog bounces up and down trying to get an idea of where it is going before attempting to get in, and will often come up short and have to be helped. This dog did not do this as a younger dog. It didn't start until the dog was 4 years old, and coincides with when the dog started having jumping issues. The dog now also prefers physically climbing up onto the couch as opposed to jumping up.
It also is not a pain issue at play in this dog.

 

[Sharon]

Ets

Sealtainn:

Let me reiterate, I have had some trouble logically following the conversations about ETS, but because of the direction I would like to procede with a dog, I am very interested in the topic. (BTW, my difficulty stems from trying to sift through comments here that often seem to be diametrically opposed to each other). However, I am intrigued by your comment re: dogs jumping on the bed. Could you comment on what type of indicators could be observed in dogs jumping on a bed that might indicate the presence of ETS? The reason behind my question is that it would seem to me (a novice) that a trained individual might see clear indicators in dogs who are jumping over obstacles following a lead up at some speed. But, since jumping on a bed would less likely include the run up, I am unsure what the indicators would be. What would a trained individual be looking for in a dog that was simply jumping to an obstacle from a relatively standing position?

Missing the bed would be an indicator.

 

[seashel]

I've been off and done a search and read a lot more on the subject plus watched some more videos. Very interesting to see the different viewpoints of handlers/trainers/specialists etc and also to see the videos of different breeds.

I couldn't find any discussions/articles etc though from the UK or countries other than North America? Is it known under a different name?

 

[danisgoat]

I couldn't find any discussions/articles etc though from the UK or countries other than North America? Is it known under a different name?

It is localized. Or at least the label is. It was brought to attention by one veterinarian, I believe. I am sure that there are some dogs that jump early in other countries, but we like to place labels on everything in the US/North America.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Could you comment on what type of indicators could be observed in dogs jumping on a bed that might indicate the presence of ETS?

We had a dog years ago that I think fit the ETS model. He not only jumped early, once causing an injury good enough for Chris Zink to write about, but he had to take extra time to gauge where furniture was. Have you ever seen an old person take their glasses off (or put them on), squint, then move their head until things come into focus? Dogs do the same thing, minus the glasses. Shadow used to walk up to a piece of furniture, turn his head left and right like he was gauging where it actually was, then leap. Sometimes he made it, sometimes not. The sofa was not as bad, but my parents high bed was an issue.

The other thing that I observe in some dogs is in my central stairwell. My house has three flights of steps up to my apartment. As you go up the second flight, there is a large glass block window in front of you. Dogs with vision issues will consistently have trouble going into that light. They are fine going away from the light, but stumble into it. At night, they do fine. And they don't get over it in time. I'm not sure these things are connected, as light sensitivity and depth perception are obviously two different things.

I have also heard from a breeder that she knows a dog has a sight issue if they freak out on the grooming table, like they can't see what is around them. Most trained dogs just pop up on the table and hang out, but if they can't see the floor, or a point of reference, that could be an indicator of vision problems.

 

[danisgoat]

I have also heard from a breeder that she knows a dog has a sight issue if they freak out on the grooming table, like they can't see what is around them. Most trained dogs just pop up on the table and hang out, but if they can't see the floor, or a point of reference, that could be an indicator of vision problems.

That's interesting. I never thought of that as a the dog having a vision problem, but it makes a lot of sense.