Pomsky???

[Tabitha]

But Tabitha.. that's how a majority of today's breeds have come up. They all started as dogs were selectively bred to do certain jobs or look a certain way.

I have no problem with this. I understand that without selective breeding there would never have been Shelties, heck there may not even have been toonie dogs! So I have NO problem if someone is trying to make a better breed and is doing it legitimately.

It's the people who say, "I have a poodle here that is cute, and a yorkie here that is cute, lets breed them!" that I have issues with. They just want to make money with no regard to genetics or quality of the parents. But we also have breeders doing that with purebred dogs too.. so...

THIS is what I have a problem with...

 

[EJHUNTL]

JessicaR, I must say, I completely disagree with you. If someone what's a mix breed GO TO A SHELTER! There are PLENTY of rescue dogs there that NEED homes. I'm sorry but I just can't rationalize anything you just said. Not one bit of it makes since to me as a responsible pet owner.

I disagree with you. What you are saying essentially is get a registered dog from a breeder or a get a shelter dog - and there are lots of reasons why those 2 choices alone aren't going to work for everyone. Perhaps they cannot afford the price of a dog from a breeder or can't find what they are looking for in a shelter, or maybe the rescue group won't consider them because their yard is not fenced or they smoke or they have kids or they are old …..

There is nothing that says if you got your puppy from a small or family breeder you are, by definition, not a responsible owner. I have several friends who own small mixed breeds and those pets are loved to bits and very well taken care of. Those dogs have won the owner lottery. Pet stores, vets & trainers all largely exist to supply owners of mixed breed pets - as mutts are far more common than any other breed.

Just because your dog is registered is also not a guarantee that the breeder was responsible either.

Shelters have great dogs, but they also have problem dogs and are not always up front about the issues those pets were turned in for (or the people doing the surrender were less than honest). For someone who wants a new puppy with a certain size or look, many times a mixed breed obtained from a pet home can be a good match. We chose our shelties because of their looks/temperament and there is no reason why other folk shouldn't be allowed the same choice just because they don't choose the registered route to pet ownership.

What we want to end is the puppy mill industry ( where dogs are kept in horrible conditions their whole lives to supply pet stores) - so don't buy your dog from a pet store unless you can be sure who the breeder was ( maybe the store owner sells her own pups or she knows some responsible breeders). Go visit the home your puppy came from, meet the parents - do they look healthy and well cared for, make sure your pup was raised indoors with people and take it to the vet to be checked out in that first week ( make sure they will take the dog back if it does not check out). If you do all this you have a pretty good chance of ending up with a healthy dog; but there are seldom any guarantees regardless of where you get your dog from.


Interesting stats:
Some 53% of american dogs are mutts - and 38% of people get their pets from family or friends.
http://www.americanhumane.org/assets/pdfs/pets-fact-sheet.pdf

 

[Tabitha]

Eva, what I was disagreeing with was when Jessica started talking like she didn't have a problem with BYBs (or that's what I thought it sounded like, I could be wrong). I never said anything about dogs being registered meaning it came from a good breeder. I've seen AKC registered litters that were so un-sheltie like that I was surprised they were even able to register them. I know accidence happen when someones dog has puppies, maybe they got a dog and was told it was spayed and it wasn't, or maybe they didn't see the need for spaying, or didn't know the dog was in heat, etc etc. There are lots of reasons (AND excuses) for different things. But there are MILLIONS of GOOD dogs in shelters today, and thousands are put to sleep because they can't find a home, and people that are not breeding CORRECTLY are adding to that number every day.

PS Jessica, I'm sorry if the statement I made about you was wrong, that's just the impression you gave me.

 

[Gina]

Very often a mutt will have fewer health issues

Very untrue. If you bred a Pug and a Beagle to produce what people call "Puggles"... that dog will have the chance to have every health defect that each breed carries, so that almost doubles their list of health problems that can occur. And most people who breed mutts don't health test, so there is a very big chance that something can happen to that dog. I'm not saying all mutts have health issues, either. Those are the lucky ones. I will say though, that I have rescued a dog from the shelter and although she doesn't have any major health problems right now, at 9 years old she is becoming crippled, while my 7 year old Sheltie with nice structure (from a breeder who health tests and keeps structure in mind when breeding) looks, acts and moves like he is a teenager. Mutts don't have a written standard, so who is to say what is proper structure or not? Plus, most of the bozos out there breeding these designer dogs don't even know basic anatomy. How would they even know what a well put together dog looks like?

I feel very strongly, as does Barb, about not breeding mutts. There is no reason for it, unless you are truly and honestly trying to create a new breed with a goal in mind (working dog of some sort), not just to make money and give people "cute" dogs for a ridiculous amount of money. It makes it harder for the good breeders out there who are trying to do the right thing.

I could go on for ages on this subject, but I will leave it at that for now lol.

 

[JessicaR]

I was saying that IF someone is a responsible breeder, health tests, temperament tests, and are breeding for a reason, other than fluffy is sooo cute she needs to have puppies, though some will argue that's all toy breeds are for, or to make a quick buck, then I see no problem with it. Sorry if I wasn't clearer.

I also was saying that there are not enough reputable breeders to keep up with the demand or their prices are too high and people so people go to not so good breeders for puppies. Lets face it with all the ARA's out there it seems harder and harder to find good breeders, I Have a real fear for the future of breeders. There are so many laws being passed that is making it harder on them, too expensive, or to intimidating for the new comer to make a start.

As for shelters, they can be nice for some people, but not for everyone. Some of them are way to strict with there placement rules. Others that have kids or small animals, it can be harder to find an older dog that is compatible. For me personally I would rather start with a puppy that I can train, and raise with my kids/animals instead of trying to overcome problems. Puppies can be hard to find in shelters, especially if you want a certain breed. Unfortunately in my area we have lots of hound dogs and pit bull and pit mixes. (Not that I have anything against pits, they are just not a breed I am interested in)

Plus for some people it seems to be a bragging right " I just bought this xxx for xxxx dollars look at me I got money to throw away!

 

[EJHUNTL]

I hear you about shelter dogs Tabitha - in an ideal world everyone who took on a dog would assume full responsibility for that pet's care and well being and our shelters would not end up having to put down millions of pets. Personally I think if you get a pet and find yourself in a position of having to rehome it you should really be looking at a shelter as a last resort. That animal is your responsibility so you need to find it a new home even if that takes time. You should also be completely honest about why you aren't keeping it.

I don't necessarily agree with you that someone breeding their pet schnauzer to their friend's yorkie or mutt is being irresponsible. Assuming both pets are healthy with good temperaments and sizes are appropriate, and you are willing and able to assume the risks ( and possible costs of pregnancy complications), are willing to raise the puppies at home, and can find good homes for all the offspring - then you are no less responsible than someone who does the exact same thing only with papers. These small home breeders are not puppy mills.

On average mutts live about 13.9 years and are fairly healthy - I think that compares favourably to registered dogs. Many registered breeds are prone to all sorts of health concerns that mutts are less likely to be afflicted by, yet stupid breed standards remain and those registered dogs keep getting bred as there is a demand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7569064.stm

If shelters had the dogs people wanted most - they would not be as full since people would look there first. Small breed puppies that are healthy and well socialized in particular are hard to locate in a shelter ( at least here in Canada), and that is a type of dog many people are looking for. If you want a bigger dog, you have a much better chance of being able to locate a puppy at a shelter or from a rescue group.

People who get their puppies from small home breeders are no more responsible for the shelter problem, than people who get their puppies from registered breeders. A new puppy adds to the population regardless of where it came from. What happens to it after it goes home is where owner responsibility comes in.

If I hadn't set my heart on a sheltie there is a good chance that I would now own a pom/papillon cross that I was considering. I make no apologies for that. I happen to like smaller dogs, with lots of coat and long noses, that are fairly intelligent. It is a type that just does not show up frequently in shelters. As I am making what could potentially be a 10-15 year committment, I get to pick the kind of dog I want, and if that means it's not available from a shelter or isn't registered why should I feel guilty about where I got it ( excluding a puppy mill) so long as I give it a great home?

 

[Gina]

I don't necessarily agree with you that someone breeding their pet schnauzer to their friend's yorkie or mutt is being irresponsible. Assuming both pets are healthy with good temperaments and sizes are appropriate, and you are willing and able to assume the risks ( and possible costs of pregnancy complications), are willing to raise the puppies at home, and can find good homes for all the offspring - then you are no less responsible than someone who does the exact same thing only with papers. These small home breeders are not puppy mills.

To me, that is irresponsible as breeding any mutt is irresponsible to me. They may not be a puppy mill, but they are still a BYB. I would rather get rid of puppy mills before BYBs, but they would still be next on the list. First off, people who want to breed their pet schnauzer to their friend's yorkie I can guarantee you did not health test their dogs for genetic diseases. Taking your dog to the vet for a physical does not count. They would be losing out on a lot of money if they actually tested their dogs for hip dysplasia, patellas, CERF, Legg-Calve-Perthes, thyroid, cardiac, and more. And your typical BYB doesn't want to spend much. They figure they can still make some extra cash from the puppies. If you breed the correct way, you are losing money. And sorry but you cannot compare responsible breeders "with papers" to those BYBs. Having papers does not draw the line between them, it is so much more than that.

On average mutts live about 13.9 years and are fairly healthy - I think that compares favourably to registered dogs. Many registered breeds are prone to all sorts of health concerns that mutts are less likely to be afflicted by, yet stupid breed standards remain and those registered dogs keep getting bred as there is a demand.

I already posted that that statement is not necessarily true. Mixed breeds can have health issues that are breed related to every breed they are mixed with. Just because they are mixed does not automatically make them more healthy or immune to genetic diseases. And what exactly do you mean by "stupid breed standards"? Without them, we wouldn't have breeds. So I'm quite lost with that statement.

 

[EJHUNTL]

I already posted that that statement is not necessarily true. Mixed breeds can have health issues that are breed related to every breed they are mixed with. Just because they are mixed does not automatically make them more healthy or immune to genetic diseases. And what exactly do you mean by "stupid breed standards"? Without them, we wouldn't have breeds. So I'm quite lost with that statement.

Did you look at the BBC link I posted? I watched the documentary that went with this film a couple of years ago and it was eye-opening. Dogs are bred that have brains too big for their skulls, others cannot deliver without assistance, still others suffer breathing issue all in the pursuit of a certain look.

Mixed breeds are by no means immune to genetic diseases ( I never made that claim) but they do have a greater genetic pool to draw from so are less likely to suffer from issues related to inbreeding that are actually common in pedigreed animals.

Don't take my word for it - do some googling. Here's one vet's opinion. I've been told the same thing by my own vet. YMMV

"To the annoyance of most purebred breeders, most of us tend to side with the mixes (and, no, we don't consider hybrids, like Labradoodles, exempt from the purebred designation). Mutts mostly win out for their sheer hardiness, thriftiness and longevity, due to their lower incidence of genetic disease.

Since they are likely to have a lower risk for receiving a high dose of specific purebred genetic material that can lead to inherited disease, I believe they’re healthier than purebreds in this particular sense. As a result, many mutts have a lower rate of hip dysplasia, certain knee diseases, most spinal diseases, many heart diseases, plenty of cancers and a whole lot of skin, blood, brain, liver and kidney diseases, among others.

"Statistically speaking, mixes win out — but genetics are only half the battle. Here are some other key factors that come into play in the mutt vs. purebred discussion."

Source:
http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/the-great-debate-are-mutts-healthier-than-purebreds

 

[EJHUNTL]

I should clarify that not all breeds have ridiculous requirements that cause issues - working breeds tend to be quite sound (I'm guessing here as I'm no expert). But when you breed for a flatter face ( have you heard some pugs snorting), or a smaller head, or any other cosmetic trait that potentially results in a dog with real physical impairment then that to me qualifies as a ridiculous breed standard. One of the reasons I like shelties so much is that the breed standard, as far as I can judge, produces a very structurally sound dog. Small but not so tiny that they are fragile. They don't tend to hip dysplasia, generally are a pretty healthy breed with good life expectancy on the whole so long as you don't let them get too fat.

 

[Lightplum]

Did you look at the BBC link I posted? I watched the documentary that went with this film a couple of years ago and it was eye-opening. Dogs are bred that have brains too big for their skulls, others cannot deliver without assistance, still others suffer breathing issue all in the pursuit of a certain look.

Mixed breeds are by no means immune to genetic diseases ( I never made that claim) but they do have a greater genetic pool to draw from so are less likely to suffer from issues related to inbreeding that are actually common in pedigreed animals.

Don't take my word for it - do some googling. Here's one vet's opinion. I've been told the same thing by my own vet. YMMV

"To the annoyance of most purebred breeders, most of us tend to side with the mixes (and, no, we don't consider hybrids, like Labradoodles, exempt from the purebred designation). Mutts mostly win out for their sheer hardiness, thriftiness and longevity, due to their lower incidence of genetic disease.

Since they are likely to have a lower risk for receiving a high dose of specific purebred genetic material that can lead to inherited disease, I believe they’re healthier than purebreds in this particular sense. As a result, many mutts have a lower rate of hip dysplasia, certain knee diseases, most spinal diseases, many heart diseases, plenty of cancers and a whole lot of skin, blood, brain, liver and kidney diseases, among others.

"Statistically speaking, mixes win out — but genetics are only half the battle. Here are some other key factors that come into play in the mutt vs. purebred discussion."

Source:
http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/the-great-debate-are-mutts-healthier-than-purebreds

Rather than just some vets opinion (and you know what they say about opinions ) I tend to go with actual research and studies.
http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/halfbreed-dogs-healthier-purebred-dogs-6408.html