Veterinary Position on Debarking

As stated before, I confess that I am surprised at the vehemence shown here by those supporting devocalization.

You shouldn't be surprised, Dr. Mac :wink2:. This subject has come up several before, and the discussions are always great.

Here are the threads:

http://sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=4432&highlight=debarking

http://sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=6614&highlight=debarking

http://sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=1591&highlight=debarking

And the list goes on. Just do a search on debarking. You can see many people's different views on the subject.

Dani
 
And, of course, if veterinarians supported the procedure it would be seen by many as an inhumane 'anything for a buck' attitude. I suppose they deserve a little credit for 'sending money out the door' by saying no.

My vet thinks debarking is horrible, and he hates docking/cropping as well, but can't do much about it in his practice because the co-owner of the practice breeds Dobermans. Nobody in the practice will declaw cats.

Incidentally, the two vets who do debarks here in Maryland/NOVA are both Sheltie breeders. Shocker, I know.
 
Ear cropping is mostly cosmetic, but ask working terrier or hound owners if tail docking is cosmetic. The answer is no. Would you rather dock at 3 days, or wait for a catastrophic injury in a tunnel or in the field, and amputate at 3 years, after letting the dog suffer through a bloody, painful mess for a day?

Greyhounds (and other large sighthounds with long, whippy tails) are especially prone to trail breaks, which are difficult to set. I've heard of dogs who have broken and rebroken their tails so often that they end up having them amputated (ie. docked). If tail docking is used to protect dogs from injury, why is there no AKC tradition of docking sighthound tails?

Likewise the gundogs. Why do Springers lose their tails, but Setters keep them? German Shorthair Pointers, Vizlas, and Weims are docked, but English Pointers are left long. I guess you could say that working conditions on the Continent are different from those in England, but English Springer Spaniels worked in the same landscapes and are docked.
 
Greyhounds (and other large sighthounds with long, whippy tails) are especially prone to trail breaks, which are difficult to set. I've heard of dogs who have broken and rebroken their tails so often that they end up having them amputated (ie. docked). If tail docking is used to protect dogs from injury, why is there no AKC tradition of docking sighthound tails?

Likewise the gundogs. Why do Springers lose their tails, but Setters keep them? German Shorthair Pointers, Vizlas, and Weims are docked, but English Pointers are left long. I guess you could say that working conditions on the Continent are different from those in England, but English Springer Spaniels worked in the same landscapes and are docked.

I think sighthounds would fall over if they didn't have tails. The tails are probably more useful for balance in a fast moving breed, and so the risk of damage is outweighed by the need for balance.

Watch an agility trial and you can see the difference between docked and undocked breeds in the way they move. Especially the larger docked breeds who have to make more exaggerated body movements to turn.

All I'm saying is that I don't object to docking because it's done so young. If I bred a docked breed, and had no interest in showing AKC, I wouldn't dock, but it's not my business if you choose to. We remove rear dew claws that young (and some breeders still remove fronts), I'm sure I could find lots of people who object to that too. Icelandic Sheepdog people would call the removal of the rears "cosmetic".

This is probably why I have Shelties, I don't have to worry about cropping/docking.

So I thought I had a picture of my friends Norwich puppy that didn't get her tail docked because she was too frail at 3 days. He refuses to do it after that, so she has a tail. She is very cute. I guess that picture is on my home computer...
 
I think sighthounds would fall over if they didn't have tails. The tails are probably more useful for balance in a fast moving breed, and so the risk of damage is outweighed by the need for balance.

Watch an agility trial and you can see the difference between docked and undocked breeds in the way they move. Especially the larger docked breeds who have to make more exaggerated body movements to turn.

All I'm saying is that I don't object to docking because it's done so young. If I bred a docked breed, and had no interest in showing AKC, I wouldn't dock, but it's not my business if you choose to. We remove rear dew claws that young (and some breeders still remove fronts), I'm sure I could find lots of people who object to that too. Icelandic Sheepdog people would call the removal of the rears "cosmetic".

This is probably why I have Shelties, I don't have to worry about cropping/docking.

So I thought I had a picture of my friends Norwich puppy that didn't get her tail docked because she was too frail at 3 days. He refuses to do it after that, so she has a tail. She is very cute. I guess that picture is on my home computer...

Nah, I agree with you - I just want to keep things consistent. It's OK to say "Docking is done very, very young, the puppies aren't traumatized, and it may have some benefits." But saying "Docking is important to protect because it has [x benefits]" where [x benefits] are logically inconsistent doesn't stand up, and the people we are defending the practice to will see that.
 
What is your position on debarking, Dr. Mac?
He's stated it several times that hes adamantly against bark softening.

Also the majority of Vets will not do debark surgeries, also there is only pretty much one vet in the state of RI that most consider "qualified" enough to do the procedure.

Another thing that strikes me is that these so called animal lovers who love their breed to the end and will go to the ends of the earth for them are making it harder and harder for people to sustain them...seriously show me a sheltie breeder without atleast one debarked dog! The majority of breeders live in areas that are populated, this isnt the 1950's were you can take up 150 acres and your neighbors wont hear your dogs.

It amazes me that the people who want to own the dogs must think they just fall out of the sky and viola heres your 10 week old puppy..enjoy!:rolleyes2:

But than again im guessing that the people of the forum get this fact and understand thats why there is such vehemence for it...
 
He's stated it several times that hes adamantly against bark softening.

Sorry, I missed that.

I would be interested in hearing his reasoning/thoughts for this stance.

Nah, I agree with you - I just want to keep things consistent. It's OK to say "Docking is done very, very young, the puppies aren't traumatized, and it may have some benefits." But saying "Docking is important to protect because it has [x benefits]" where [x benefits] are logically inconsistent doesn't stand up, and the people we are defending the practice to will see that.

I am with you on this. It is very confusing on where to draw the line.
 
If I were to ask the next 50 clients who walk in my door what they thought of 'altering' (trying not to use 'leading' language) the vocal cords to 'soften' a dog's bark, I would guess with reasonable confidence that 48 would be appalled at the idea. And I have a feeling that a lot of members of this forum feel the same way.

If I went to a country that had no tradition of infant circumcision, and asked 50 people on the street there what whey thought of "altering" (trying not to use leading language) a newborn's ***** to make it more aesthetically appealing, I would guess with reasonable confidence that 48 out of 50 would be appalled.

But in the US, where circumcision is routinely practiced, the vast majority of us don't have a problem with it. Yes, there are groups that protest it, and some parents choose not to have it done, but I think we can generally agree that, when done in a hospital by a doctor and with local anesthesia, circumcision is accepted. (It's also quite legal for it to be done in the parents' home, by a trained layman, with no anesthesia at all.) It forever alters an important function, but there are some benefits, and in the long run, life goes on. (Incidentally, like tail docking in dogs, it's a much more unpleasant procedure when done on an adult that when done at three days old - heck, this metaphor gets better and better!)

At any rate, what I'm trying to say is that I think a lot of the anti-debarking sentiment has to do with cultural exposure. It sounds like an awful procedure. The general public imagines our dogs languishing in tiny cages, unloved. They don't meet debarked dogs, and they don't see just how entirely normal their lives and behavior are. I think that if more people could see how happy and healthy and ordinary a debarked Sheltie's life is, more people would support owners' rights to seek the surgery.
 
At any rate, what I'm trying to say is that I think a lot of the anti-debarking sentiment has to do with cultural exposure. It sounds like an awful procedure. The general public imagines our dogs languishing in tiny cages, unloved. They don't meet debarked dogs, and they don't see just how entirely normal their lives and behavior are. I think that if more people could see how happy and healthy and ordinary a debarked Sheltie's life is, more people would support owners' rights to seek the surgery.

Very VERY well said, Megan.

I could not agree more. Especially when the bark softening does not alter the dogs natural behavior.

The question is...what is more traumatic for the dog?

1. Being rehomed and/or disciplined for their natural instinctive behavior.

2. Or having a procedure done by a licensed veterinarian and allowed to live the life that they are accustomed to.
 
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