Veterinary Position on Debarking

[take4roll10]

As stated before, I confess that I am surprised at the vehemence shown here by those supporting devocalization. This is hardly because I hold some radical view on the matter. If I were to ask the next 50 clients who walk in my door what they thought of 'altering' (trying not to use 'leading' language) the vocal cords to 'soften' a dog's bark, I would guess with reasonable confidence that 48 would be appalled at the idea. And I have a feeling that a lot of members of this forum feel the same way.

Now suppose you told your 50 clients this... you've received a letter from your city stating neighbors are complaining about your dog's excessive barking. You've hired trainers, bought bark training collars, researched online, tried training yourself, exercised your dog like no tomorrow...it all failed. You can't move for whatever reason (job, family, money, every house is close to their neighbor's, etc). So you are down to two options, rehoming your beloved dog to a family where barking won't be a problem or having a vet perform a simple produce on your dog's vocal cords that will soften his bark. How do you think your clients will feel about debarking now? You still think only 2 would be appalled? I would be shocked if the majority of them would chose giving up their dog. You also have to consider that there are people out there who can't stand dog's barking. I have seen numerous news reports of people poisoning someone's dog. I'm pretty sure Caro's sheltie angel was poisoned for barking.

I think most people are not informed about what debarking really is. Most people don't even know about it, because it's not an every day surgery. I also believe that most people who do debark their dogs have tried every possible thing to control their barking and only use debarking as a last resort. If they just casually debark all their dogs because they personally can't stand all the barking and haven't done any training to prevent it, then I don't believe in debarking in that situation. They should probably just own Basenji's.

And, of course, if veterinarians supported the procedure it would be seen by many as an inhumane 'anything for a buck' attitude. I suppose they deserve a little credit for 'sending money out the door' by saying no.

I would not consider a vet inhumane or doing "anything for a buck" if they perform debarking procedures. I would only think that way if they advertised debarking in thier office or as soon as a client says they're having barking issues, the vet suggests the surgery. I would like to think that a responsible vet would only perform debarking if they are sure their client has tried every possible measure to stop barking and is considering the surgery as a last resort.

Now for my sheltie... Bailey is not debarked and I don't think I'll ever have to do debark her. I would consider it if I had no other option. Fortunately, I do. She has a shrilling piercing bark and at times can bark excessively. In November, we received a barking complaint from the city. If we received two more complaints 5 weeks from the first one, they would've sent an employee to evaluate her and see if we are breaking the noise ordinance law. The law states your dog can not bark for more than 10 minutes from 7am to 10pm and 5 minutes from 10pm to 7am. That is not realistic for a sheltie! I have a small yard and have houses all around me. Bailey will bark when a neighbor leaves and enter their home. Luckily, Bailey is very smart and is responding to training. If she barks excessively in the yard, she is brought inside. I'm also moving to an apartment (not because of her barking). She doesn't bark as much in the house, so I think she will be fine.

 

[Lightplum]

Very VERY well said, Megan.

I could not agree more. Especially when the bark softening does not alter the dogs natural behavior.

The question is...what is more traumatic for the dog?

1. Being rehomed and/or disciplined for their natural instinctive behavior.

2. Or having a procedure done by a licensed veterinarian and allowed to live the life that they are accustomed to.

Thats the bottom line...leave it up to the individual owner and their vet to make the decision. And like ive said before and i'll say it again this is not the type of surgery people are going out to have done in the masses...

 

[OntarioSheltie]

If I went to a country that had no tradition of infant circumcision, and asked 50 people on the street there what whey thought of "altering" (trying not to use leading language) a newborn's ***** to make it more aesthetically appealing, I would guess with reasonable confidence that 48 out of 50 would be appalled.

But in the US, where circumcision is routinely practiced, the vast majority of us don't have a problem with it. Yes, there are groups that protest it, and some parents choose not to have it done, but I think we can generally agree that, when done in a hospital by a doctor and with local anesthesia, circumcision is accepted. (It's also quite legal for it to be done in the parents' home, by a trained layman, with no anesthesia at all.) It forever alters an important function, but there are some benefits, and in the long run, life goes on. (Incidentally, like tail docking in dogs, it's a much more unpleasant procedure when done on an adult that when done at three days old - heck, this metaphor gets better and better!)

At any rate, what I'm trying to say is that I think a lot of the anti-debarking sentiment has to do with cultural exposure. It sounds like an awful procedure. The general public imagines our dogs languishing in tiny cages, unloved. They don't meet debarked dogs, and they don't see just how entirely normal their lives and behavior are. I think that if more people could see how happy and healthy and ordinary a debarked Sheltie's life is, more people would support owners' rights to seek the surgery.

Very VERY well said, Megan.

I could not agree more. Especially when the bark softening does not alter the dogs natural behavior.

The question is...what is more traumatic for the dog?

1. Being rehomed and/or disciplined for their natural instinctive behavior.

2. Or having a procedure done by a licensed veterinarian and allowed to live the life that they are accustomed to.

Very well said, both of you.

I really don't see how things such as de-vocalization and tail and ear docking can be regulated properly without gov't's and Kennel Clubs collaborating. And I don't see that happening any time soon, which is so sad.

Its very wrong for any gov't to band such things as de-vocalization without first looking into ALL the facts and not just listening to one group of ignorant and misinformed people who are out to stir up trouble. I'm dealing with such a by-law issue right now with a bunch of crazies living in my area.

When I first heard of de-vocalization about a year ago, my immediate reaction was horror. Now that I've learned more about it and how it can keep dogs from being euthanized and out of shelters while affecting said dog very little, I'm all for it. Its a sad reality that this needs to be done, but some times it needs to be done to save the lives of the dogs and the sanity of their owners or neighbors.

 

[SheepOfBlue]

You know I brought up the same thing to the council, I asked them how many dogs do they know that have been debarked? 8 out of the 9 (because the 9th who introduced the bill refused to come answer any questions) said they do not know of one...yup thats right no knowledge what so ever but they are passing this laws. The car bill is utterly ridicioulous...I mean come on its -13c outside right now and my dogs are chose to sleep outside on the porch instead of the house...obviously if I had a chi or another small dog they couldnt be out in this weather but mine prefer below zero to say 70 degrees....

And that is why I oppose most of these laws. These people are doing something because they feel good about it rather than to help anyone. A lot of politicians personal lives are a wreck so they tell others how to live . I personally would never debark Sca but his Mom is debarked. She was fine and carried on just like normal. For showing and in cities I can see a Shelties tendency to bark being an issue. Like I said I doubt I would ever even consider it but that does not mean it is wrong in all cases. Considering all the sick and neglectful things done to dogs if there is an owner that debarks yet cares for the pup, plays with him, keeps his health good and his grooming up is that pup not actually well off? IMO yes and I would not condemn someone for that. When you have @#$#@! putting puppies in postal packages debarking seems a non-issue to me and thus I normally avoid these discussions.

 

[The Quahog]

What is your position on debarking, Dr. Mac?

My position is fairly similar to that of the veterinary association, which is one reason I started yet another thread on debarking, because I found the 'position statement' interesting and clearly stated as a basis for discussion.

I would tend to take a somewhat softer line, for example I don't see where 'after attempts at rehoming ' should enter into the conversation. Yes, I see it as a 'last resort', as I also see declawing an adult cat, but a 'last resort' that comes before giving the dog up to someone else rather than after.

I also think that Ann's contribution -
====I must admit that I was one of those people who was horrified by the concept of surgically altering a dog's voice until I had firsthand experience of what it is, and what it does. When I realized that they aren't rendered mute, and are perfectly comfortable with their new voices -- indeed, don't even seem to notice the difference -- my opinion changed.

I think that's the problem with the general populace. We judge something before we have all the facts. Debarking has been one of the third rails of dogdom for a very long time. Perhaps if the proponents got the word out there as much as the detractors have, people might become more educated and realistic about the process.
__________________
Ann aka Sheltiholic===

is a very good one from the standpoint of 'shedding more light than heat' on the situation. Our positions on such matters should always be open to change based on listening to what experienced people have to say.
One of the more important mantras of business is 'If you are doing something the same way you were doing it 2 years ago, you should be reconsidering it and seeing if a change is in order.' - Dr. Mac

 

[The Quahog]

I don't know if 'cross posting' is outside the rules- if so the mods can feel free to delete this, but I just did a quick search on the Lab Chat board - take a look there.
Here is a typical thread, from a breed not known to be shrinking violets in the barking dept.
Give it a quick read through, end to end. Won't take long.
I think it gives a pretty typical view of the average dog owner's attitude.
http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/fire-hydrant/7362013-state-bans-debarking-surgery.html

-Dr. Mac

 

[Calliesmom]

My personal vehemence is that I don't think I should be told what to do about my dog in the department of debarking. and to make it illegal- I think that just makes people go outside the law- seems like people never learn from history.
I do happen to live in a state where it's not an issue. going to be stereotypical here - but just try telling an Alabama redneck what to do about anything
anyway, Callie was debarked- probably before she got into rescue and there are times that you would not know it. Cran and Dix are not- and Dixie is my barker. She's not terribly loud either but she has opinions on all the neighbors, the squirrels, etc.
Strangely enough, she does not trigger group barking in Cran and Callie.

 

[Calliesmom]

I don't know if 'cross posting' is outside the rules- if so the mods can feel free to delete this, but I just did a quick search on the Lab Chat board - take a look there.
Here is a typical thread, from a breed not known to be shrinking violets in the barking dept.
Give it a quick read through, end to end. Won't take long.
I think it gives a pretty typical view of the average dog owner's attitude.
http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/fire-hydrant/7362013-state-bans-debarking-surgery.html

-Dr. Mac

only 19 posts in that thread There was only one person who seemed to have a clue there.
I do understand that many people do not know about debarking and from the comments in that forum, they have no idea what the surgery is all about either. Unfortunately, most people think they are right and won't even try to learn more about the situation.
People need to be careful about what they get put into law- Poor Caro can't even own/compete with a debarked dog in her part of Australia. I think that is so wrong.

 

[DogIsMyMantra]

I don't believe in altering our animal companions for convenience or cosmetic purposes, but am vehemently opposed to any legislation aimed at preventing it. My opinion is that it is the owner and vetererinarian's responsibility to decide what is appropriate and if there are those who disagree with the decision, then it should be acted upon socially rather than legislatively.

I don't support routine debarking (and have met hundreds of debarked dogs), but don't believe anyone has any right to outlaw it since it generally is a safe procedure with little harm to the dog. I also don't support cropping of ears (purely cosmetic in most cases), but am very supportive of tail docking in some breeds.

There are ways to evolve and progress with regards to our canine companions that don't require having the government attempt to regulate pet owners actions. If there is something you disagree with, make it known socially (be prepared to hear the other side of course!) and vote with your wallet: I will not use a veterinarian who routinely performs ear crops, debarkings or declawings. I chose a breeder who does not perform routine debarks. I share my opinion reagrding mandatory spay/neuter even though it is not so popular with some of my friends who also volunteer at rescues/shelters. I have written letters to legislators opposing legislation regarding some of these topics (regardless of which 'side' I belonged to socially).

 

[marymrumfelt]

People just don't understand what the surgery entails and all that. I firmly believe that when we take in pets, who at one time were wild animals, we must alter them to some degree to meet our lifestyle.

I actually just scheduled Hadley's debarking surgery, as I have a friend here who took one of my pups and she's used him for yrs and had most of her dogs debarked b/c she lives in the city and has over 15 dogs so she must take precautions in order to not get fined or worse be forced to get rid of her dogs. No one would ever know these dogs were debarked until she says something. I agree, like most subjects, people just jump to the popular consensus of whether it's right or wrong without knowing any facts or even knowing anyone who has had it done.

I can't even imagine how infuriated I'd be if my state told me I couldn't declaw my cat or debark my dog. People aren't educated on the subject, don't understand the surgery(someone on the lab board said, "vocal cords ripped out"?!?! REALLY?) and don't even have any desire to look into the facts b/c they just heard it was wrong so therefor it must be wrong. Ignorant, uninformed people do not have the right to make decisions for people.